Tea! I don't understand it! Please Help!

[Dean Macinskas]

Vlad,

I'm sure others on the NG will add their input, but here are some
starting-point suggestions:

1. For green tea, keep the water temp below 180F/80C.
2. Look at the dry tea leaves - if they appear to be smallish, use a rounded
dessertspoonful of tea per 8oz/250ml of water. If the leaves are fairly
large, start with 2 spoonfuls.
3. Warm the pot, add the tea, pour in the hot water.
4. Try brewing for 2 minutes. Immediately pour ALL of the tea out of the
pot.
5. Taste. If still too bitter, shorten the time. If you cannot shorten the
time to the point where the tea still tastes good but is not too bitter, try
another tea. Just between you and me, green tea is an acquired taste - I
much prefer black teas, but I've had a few greens that don't taste to me
like spinach water. Paradoxically, my favorite is gunpowder.

Keep experimenting!

Regards,
Dean

Hey, hello! I've only recently started to prepare a green tea at home
and I came to I conclusion I may be doing something wrong... :-) I
bought about 4 different kinds of fresh medium price/quality tea
(Oolong,Gyokuro types), they look nice they smell nice, but when I try
to make a drink of them, I only get a coloured hot water without much
taste or aroma... I tried using a lot of tea leaves, I tried using
just a little but the best result I can get is more or less bitter hot
water without any special sensual amusement. :-) Now, while "why
should a tea bring you any special sensual amusement?" is surely a
Where did I go wrong?! :-)
Is it the temperature of the water? Do I use too hot or too cold
water?
How about the amount of the tealeaves I should use? I am not looking
for an exact and ultimate amount as I am sure hardly any exists but
more for a little guidance, so how many, if it can be quantified? One,
two teaspoons per half litter of water?
Three, five seven?!
Should I remove the tea leaves after some time or leave where it is?
Or is it better to "remove" the liquids after a while? What's the
usual time of preparation?
Now AGAIN! I am sure there's lots of you who'd say, "well, the tea is
ready when it is good, there are no rules to follow" and I generally
agree. But as I there's no person around that I can observe while
he/she prepares the tea and learn I would apreciate any little hint
from you to start with...
Thank you thank you thank you! Ah, and I am sure it is me, not the tea
that is wrong! :-) Thanks and have a nice weekend!
Vlad
-z3r0-

[Matthias Scholz]

"Vlad Zero" <***@mail.pt> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:***@posting.google.com...

Hi, Vlad!

Hey, hello! I've only recently started to prepare a green tea at home
and I came to I conclusion I may be doing something wrong... :-) I
bought about 4 different kinds of fresh medium price/quality tea
(Oolong,Gyokuro types), they look nice they smell nice, but when I try
to make a drink of them, I only get a coloured hot water without much
taste or aroma...

For a green tea beginner, that´s ok with Gyokuro. To develop a taste
for it, takes some time. But with Oolong this seems to be a bit
strange. Mybe your water is much to hard (to much calcuim).

I tried using a lot of tea leaves, I tried using
just a little but the best result I can get is more or less bitter hot
water without any special sensual amusement. :-) Now, while "why
should a tea bring you any special sensual amusement?" is surely a
Where did I go wrong?! :-)
Is it the temperature of the water? Do I use too hot or too cold
water?

It is absolutely ok to use hot boiling water. This "for a good green
tea, use only water with 60-80°C"-thing is a myth. It derives from the
fact, that in asia better tea is served in better and thinner
porcelain, so hot water could damage it. So, the better and thinner
the procelain, the the water has to be less hot, but it has nothing to
do with the tea quality.

How about the amount of the tealeaves I should use? I am not looking
for an exact and ultimate amount as I am sure hardly any exists but
more for a little guidance, so how many, if it can be quantified? One,
two teaspoons per half litter of water?
Three, five seven?!

It depends on the tea, on the quality of your water and your taste;
you have to prove for yourself.

Should I remove the tea leaves after some time or leave where it is?
Or is it better to "remove" the liquids after a while? What's the
usual time of preparation?

Two minutes will do.

In asia the tea leaves aren´t removed, instead the pot is permanently
refilled with fresh hot water (three or four times, while the second
re-infusion is the best). Don´t remove the leaves (e.g. whith using a
tea egg or s.th.) to use them later for a second infusion. A Chinese
friend told me, that the oxidation produces poisioning substances!

Now AGAIN! I am sure there's lots of you who'd say, "well, the tea is
ready when it is good, there are no rules to follow" and I generally
agree. But as I there's no person around that I can observe while
he/she prepares the tea and learn I would apreciate any little hint
from you to start with...
Thank you thank you thank you! Ah, and I am sure it is me, not the tea
that is wrong! :-) Thanks and have a nice weekend!

Maybe the tea isn´t really good at all. Esp. green teas of lower
quality are really bitter and first with less aroma. The trick there
is, to brew them with some boiling water for ca. 10 seonds. Give this
water away then and do now the "normal" infusion.

But as I said, esp. Japanese teas are not for the green tea beginner.
Start with Gunpowder and / or Jasmine Tea.

How to prepere it properly? Well, the Chinese friend told me: "We
Chinese don´t make a fuss about it. We just grab with the fingers some
tea leaves, put them into a mug, pour hot water over them and drink
it."

Matthias

[Lewis Perin]

Post by Matthias Scholz

[...why is my green tea so bad?...]
Where did I go wrong?! :-)
Is it the temperature of the water? Do I use too hot or too cold
water?

It is absolutely ok to use hot boiling water. This "for a good green
tea, use only water with 60-80°C"-thing is a myth. It derives from the
fact, that in asia better tea is served in better and thinner
porcelain, so hot water could damage it. So, the better and thinner
the procelain, the the water has to be less hot, but it has nothing to
do with the tea quality.

Sorry, it isn't a myth in my opinion. I've tasted green tea prepared
with boiling water and it's been bitter and astringent, missing most
of the enjoyable flavors and aromas a good green can provide. While
no expert on Asian pottery, I rather doubt the fine-porcelain
explanation; I've noticed excellent porcelain - at least it seemed
good to me - used for oolongs brewed at high temperatures.

Note to Vlad: If you keep reading this newsgroup you'll notice some,
uh, *vigorous* disagreements. Some of these arguments are conducted
politely, some even with a sense of humor.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / ***@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

[Bert Fuller]

Boiling water will not crack a teapot that has been prerinsed with hot water
from the tap. That is the main reason this has become common practice in
England; nothing to do with the tea. It is the temperature extremes that
crack the pot. I've cracked my share! The last time was with a glass
teapot that had been resting on a cold formica counter all night during a
Polish winter. I had forgotten to rinse it with hot water first and it
cracked as I poured water from the kettle.

And as for using boiling water with green tea, read through the archives. I
don't think anyone here would advocate it, although we do disagree on
whether it is even okay for black teas.

Bert

Post by Matthias Scholz
It is absolutely ok to use hot boiling water. This "for a good green
tea, use only water with 60-800C"-thing is a myth. It derives from the
fact, that in asia better tea is served in better and thinner
porcelain, so hot water could damage it. So, the better and thinner
the procelain, the the water has to be less hot, but it has nothing to
do with the tea quality.

How about the amount of the tealeaves I should use? I am not looking
for an exact and ultimate amount as I am sure hardly any exists but
more for a little guidance, so how many, if it can be quantified? One,
two teaspoons per half litter of water?
Three, five seven?!

It depends on the tea, on the quality of your water and your taste;
you have to prove for yourself.

Should I remove the tea leaves after some time or leave where it is?
Or is it better to "remove" the liquids after a while? What's the
usual time of preparation?

Two minutes will do.
In asia the tea leaves aren4t removed, instead the pot is permanently
refilled with fresh hot water (three or four times, while the second
re-infusion is the best). Don4t remove the leaves (e.g. whith using a
tea egg or s.th.) to use them later for a second infusion. A Chinese
friend told me, that the oxidation produces poisioning substances!

Now AGAIN! I am sure there's lots of you who'd say, "well, the tea is
ready when it is good, there are no rules to follow" and I generally
agree. But as I there's no person around that I can observe while
he/she prepares the tea and learn I would apreciate any little hint
from you to start with...
Thank you thank you thank you! Ah, and I am sure it is me, not the tea
that is wrong! :-) Thanks and have a nice weekend!

Maybe the tea isn4t really good at all. Esp. green teas of lower
quality are really bitter and first with less aroma. The trick there
is, to brew them with some boiling water for ca. 10 seonds. Give this
water away then and do now the "normal" infusion.
But as I said, esp. Japanese teas are not for the green tea beginner.
Start with Gunpowder and / or Jasmine Tea.
How to prepere it properly? Well, the Chinese friend told me: "We
Chinese don4t make a fuss about it. We just grab with the fingers some
tea leaves, put them into a mug, pour hot water over them and drink
it."
Matthias

[crymad]

Matthias Scholz wrote:

[Re: Green tea]

Post by Matthias Scholz
It is absolutely ok to use hot boiling water. This "for a good green
tea, use only water with 60-80°C"-thing is a myth. It derives from the
fact, that in asia better tea is served in better and thinner
porcelain, so hot water could damage it. So, the better and thinner
the procelain, the the water has to be less hot, but it has nothing to
do with the tea quality.

You are very mistaken. Using boiling water for brewing fine grade green
tea is most definitely not "ok". Flavor, aroma, color -- these all are
easily destroyed when green tea is subjected to the punishment of water
too hot. And "too hot" can be well below boiling.

--crymad

[Space Cowboy]

I boil everything green,black,oolong. I can't taste the differences
everybody else claims and if I do it much to do about nothing. When I
say that I mean the people in the group whose opinions I respect and
not the ones jumping on the me too bangwagon. I don't fiddle faddle
around with multiple infusions. I use the leaves once and they're
lawn manure. I don't worry about the price of tea telling me to watch
the water temperature. To me a good cuppa is down the hatch but more
as savoring the moment than taste. I could perfectly sun brew my teas
but I want a hot cup now. I never think any cup could be better. I
do enjoying varying the accoutrements of making tea such as
kettle,cup,pot but never with idea I'll expect to a/b the difference
in taste. The only way I vary my taste in tea is drinking different
teas. Everything else I keep as a constant including boiling
temperature and gasp even brewing times. It's my nonsuch approach to
making tea. Your mileage will vary but save me the sophistry of why
it does. It's possible this person will never like the taste of green
tea no matter what he does. I think any tea is an acquired taste as
an adult.

Jim

Post by crymad
[Re: Green tea]

Post by Matthias Scholz
It is absolutely ok to use hot boiling water. This "for a good green
tea, use only water with 60-80°C"-thing is a myth. It derives from the
fact, that in asia better tea is served in better and thinner
porcelain, so hot water could damage it. So, the better and thinner
the procelain, the the water has to be less hot, but it has nothing to
do with the tea quality.

You are very mistaken. Using boiling water for brewing fine grade green
tea is most definitely not "ok". Flavor, aroma, color -- these all are
easily destroyed when green tea is subjected to the punishment of water
too hot. And "too hot" can be well below boiling.
--crymad

[WNW]

Post by Space Cowboy
I boil everything green,black,oolong.

Yes, but remember: You're bonkers.
When it comes to a green tea like Gyokuro, this boiling water question
isn't even debatable. Even a school boy weaned on Mountain Dew could
probably recognize the difference between Gyokuro brewed with boiling
water and one brewed with appropriate, lower temperature water. Not
that he'd like either, mind you, but he could at least tell them apart.
--crymad

There ought to be a law against boiling Gyokuro.

N.

[Space Cowboy]

Which is precisely the case here. The poster can't taste the difference
between boil and someone's optimum temperature. It's all the same to him
and no matter what he does it still smells like day old cut grass. I've
been to enough tea tastings in my lifetime
and stated I made a tea with so and so temperature but used boiling and
invariably most would agree the tea tasted better at my fictious
temperature and so would you. There are a lot of things you can do to vary
the taste in tea but temperature isn't one of them at least enough where you
could beat the flip of a coin. All I can say about green tea it is the
toughest place to start to develop a palette. When it comes to green tea
think small as in quantity, pot, cup and don't worry about the temperature.
The only concession I ever make to a green tea and boiling water is too
rinse the leaves with cold water first. That is THE only way to make
Gyokuro and in my case I need to hold it with two hands. Also since you
didn't understand
the essence of my no nonsense tea making methodology let me summarize it for
you: The only time not to boil water for green tea is too conserve energy.
Now before you parse my brilliant treatise to a single line you don't
like try to put together something that doesn't look a quote from the me too
bible.

Jim

Post by Space Cowboy
I boil everything green,black,oolong.

Yes, but remember: You're bonkers.
When it comes to a green tea like Gyokuro, this boiling water question
isn't even debatable. Even a school boy weaned on Mountain Dew could
probably recognize the difference between Gyokuro brewed with boiling
water and one brewed with appropriate, lower temperature water. Not
that he'd like either, mind you, but he could at least tell them apart.
--crymad

[crymad]

Post by Space Cowboy
Which is precisely the case here. The poster can't taste the difference
between boil and someone's optimum temperature. It's all the same to him
and no matter what he does it still smells like day old cut grass.

You're jumping to conclusions here. In fact, Mr. Zero's original post
seems to be the cry of help from someone stewing in hot water. To Mr.
Zero: Try making your tea with significantly cooler water, say 60-80 C.

Post by Space Cowboy
I've
been to enough tea tastings in my lifetime
and stated I made a tea with so and so temperature but used boiling and
invariably most would agree the tea tasted better at my fictious
temperature and so would you.

Don't bet on it. On those occasions when I have my wife make tea for
me, I can immediately tell when she's mistakenly used 170 F water for my
155 F tea. Or when she's correctly used 155 F water, but forgotten to
pre-heat the kyuusu.

Post by Space Cowboy
The only concession I ever make to a green tea and boiling water is too
rinse the leaves with cold water first. That is THE only way to make
Gyokuro and in my case I need to hold it with two hands.

You could have a breakthrough on your hands. I'll pass on this "steamy
mug o' gyokuro" style to a nation of backwards Japanese the first chance
I get.

--crymad

[Zephyrus]

I've got to throw my support to the "lower temperature" group.

I have very little experience with greens (I would not even say that I
have a "taste" for them), but I find that boiling water can ruin a
tea. Even water at 125 degrees Farenheit can make a tea bitter,
yellowish, and unsavory that at 110 degrees or less would be a
beautiful, green, sweet, frangrant liquor.

This is true even with the $5 per 1/4 lb. Upton green I'm trying to
acclimate myself to now.

Z

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
Which is precisely the case here. The poster can't taste the difference
between boil and someone's optimum temperature. It's all the same to him
and no matter what he does it still smells like day old cut grass.

You're jumping to conclusions here. In fact, Mr. Zero's original post
seems to be the cry of help from someone stewing in hot water. To Mr.
Zero: Try making your tea with significantly cooler water, say 60-80 C.

Post by Space Cowboy
I've
been to enough tea tastings in my lifetime
and stated I made a tea with so and so temperature but used boiling and
invariably most would agree the tea tasted better at my fictious
temperature and so would you.

Don't bet on it. On those occasions when I have my wife make tea for
me, I can immediately tell when she's mistakenly used 170 F water for my
155 F tea. Or when she's correctly used 155 F water, but forgotten to
pre-heat the kyuusu.

Post by Space Cowboy
The only concession I ever make to a green tea and boiling water is too
rinse the leaves with cold water first. That is THE only way to make
Gyokuro and in my case I need to hold it with two hands.

You could have a breakthrough on your hands. I'll pass on this "steamy
mug o' gyokuro" style to a nation of backwards Japanese the first chance
I get.
--crymad

[Space Cowboy]

Hi Neal,

I get so exacerbated at the how come green tea taste bad posts followed by
the obligatory reduce the temperature mantra instead of real advice like
yours try something else. Here is a place to start. Forget the loose stuff
and try teabags from China or Japan. I learned this a long time ago in
restaurants that did the same. The taste was always marvelous and I could
never replicate with my loose green at home. In fact so much so I now
specifically shop green teabags as much as the loose stuff. Let me
summarize green tea and teabags were made for each other. Green teabags
isn't sexy so you can't impress your friends with words like sencha or
gunpowder. The reason this works in general is the tea is small quantity
and some with aluminum packaging (Yamamoto) definitely fresher. Real advice
from a real world tea drinker.

Jim

I'm curious.. what type(s) of green tea have you tried so far? There are

so

many different types and an infinite variety of flavors. Are you saying
you've found *none* so far that you've enjoyed at all?
N.

[WNW]

Post by Space Cowboy
Hi Neal,
I get so exacerbated at the how come green tea taste bad posts followed by
the obligatory reduce the temperature mantra instead of real advice like
yours try something else. Here is a place to start. Forget the loose stuff
and try teabags from China or Japan. I learned this a long time ago in
restaurants that did the same. The taste was always marvelous and I could
never replicate with my loose green at home. In fact so much so I now
specifically shop green teabags as much as the loose stuff. Let me
summarize green tea and teabags were made for each other. Green teabags
isn't sexy so you can't impress your friends with words like sencha or
gunpowder. The reason this works in general is the tea is small quantity
and some with aluminum packaging (Yamamoto) definitely fresher. Real advice
from a real world tea drinker.
Jim

Hmm... well, I guess anyone could stuff those expensive, exotic teas into
tea bags themselves and tell all the friends about it. ;)
I started out with green teas, and in general, they are still my favorite
type. I drink some kind of green tea nearly every day of the year. This
year, the only days I didn't have green tea were the days I had the stomach
flu.. but then I could hardly stand to drink plain water, either.
Still, I've given very fine green tea to people who aren't familiar with
anything but Lipton and have had them make awful faces. With me and green
tea, it was love at first sip, and I can barely imagine that with all the
types of green tea available, any person couldn't find at least _one_ green
tea that was enjoyable, but everybody has different tastes.
My parents for instance really only want generic tea-bag tea, brewed strong,
iced, and loaded with sugar. You can give them fine leaf tea of any type...
but if they have a choice, it'll be the iced sweet tea. Guess that's the
way they were brought up, and they aren't going to change.

N.

[crymad]

Post by Space Cowboy
Hi Neal,
I get so exacerbated at the how come green tea taste bad posts followed by
the obligatory reduce the temperature mantra instead of real advice like
yours try something else. Here is a place to start. Forget the loose stuff
and try teabags from China or Japan.

Teabag tea in Japan isn't bad at all. Not superlative, but not bad.
The brand names have slipped my mind, but I think some goes by the
lighthearted names "Oi! Ocha!" or "Ocha ga umai!". Let it be said,
though, that these too recommend using water that's less than boiling.
Ordinary Japanese teabag tea is just kona-cha, and it's fine for making
a quick cup of something hot. But for tea so unspectacular, you'd be
better off buying kona-cha loose, as it's a much better bargain that
way.

Post by Space Cowboy
I learned this a long time ago in
restaurants that did the same. The taste was always marvelous and I could
never replicate with my loose green at home. In fact so much so I now
specifically shop green teabags as much as the loose stuff. Let me
summarize green tea and teabags were made for each other. Green teabags
isn't sexy so you can't impress your friends with words like sencha or
gunpowder. The reason this works in general is the tea is small quantity
and some with aluminum packaging (Yamamoto) definitely fresher.

Are you talking about Yamamotoyama teabags put out by Stash? I drink
this occasionally when traveling or whatnot. Again, while this tea is
not unpleasant, it's nothing special. While the parent company is
indeed Japanese, this tea is grown in Brazil.

Post by Space Cowboy
Real advice from a real world tea drinker.

If you think appreciation for things above the dirt common is all just
empty puffery, then you're the one living in the fantasyland.

--crymad

[WNW]

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
Hi Neal,
I get so exacerbated at the how come green tea taste bad posts followed by
the obligatory reduce the temperature mantra instead of real advice like
yours try something else. Here is a place to start. Forget the loose stuff
and try teabags from China or Japan.

Teabag tea in Japan isn't bad at all. Not superlative, but not bad.
The brand names have slipped my mind, but I think some goes by the
lighthearted names "Oi! Ocha!" or "Ocha ga umai!". Let it be said,
though, that these too recommend using water that's less than boiling.
Ordinary Japanese teabag tea is just kona-cha, and it's fine for making
a quick cup of something hot. But for tea so unspectacular, you'd be
better off buying kona-cha loose, as it's a much better bargain that
way.

Post by Space Cowboy
I learned this a long time ago in
restaurants that did the same. The taste was always marvelous and I could
never replicate with my loose green at home. In fact so much so I now
specifically shop green teabags as much as the loose stuff. Let me
summarize green tea and teabags were made for each other. Green teabags
isn't sexy so you can't impress your friends with words like sencha or
gunpowder. The reason this works in general is the tea is small quantity
and some with aluminum packaging (Yamamoto) definitely fresher.

Are you talking about Yamamotoyama teabags put out by Stash? I drink
this occasionally when traveling or whatnot. Again, while this tea is
not unpleasant, it's nothing special. While the parent company is
indeed Japanese, this tea is grown in Brazil.

Post by Space Cowboy
Real advice from a real world tea drinker.

If you think appreciation for things above the dirt common is all just
empty puffery, then you're the one living in the fantasyland.
--crymad

I've never bought kona-cha, but Sencha.com has sent me gratis packets of it
with my orders before. I thought it tasted ok, but I doubt I would buy any
of it.
I have bought powdered sencha before.. and I agree, it's good for something
warm and _very_ quick. Actually on a very cold day, mixed with (don't beat
me) sugar and hot water, it makes quite a nice, dessert-like beverage,
although I also drink it without the sugar.

N.

[crymad]

[Top-posting avoided for your reading convenience]

Yup. Yamamoto of Orient, Inc. 122 Voyager Street Pomoma, CA 91768.
"These superior tea leaves are packed in a specially designed tea bag for
your precise flavor when brewed with boiling water". Another no clue tea
company giving the wrong brewing directions on it's packaging.

You can find pictures of these tea bags here, by searching for "Yamamoto
of Orient" in the Brand field:

http://www.aprim.pl/herbata/zbior.php

The green one second from the right is ubiquitous in budget hotels
throughout Japan. The one on the very right is put out by Stash.
Regarding the boiling water issue, I called Stash just moments ago and
asked them about their brewing recommendations. The kind lady said to
let boiling water sit for a bit so it drops to the 180-190 F range, and
then steep for 2-3 minutes. This jibes with my experience that boiling
water makes a drink that's strong, sour, and yellow.

I want you
to buy my tea the next time so I'll guarantee to make it taste like week old
corn silage. If it's from Brazil it's fresher in Aluminum foil. I've
been known to ante up for Earl Grey Poupon. Who says green teabags are
cheap. I drink the Chinese staple of the masses Young Chunmee and the 40g
cost me $1.15. According to my price point it should be $.40 making it
almost three times as much. Sometimes you have to pay the piper.

How much are you paying for those Yamamoto of Orient bags? Cause if
it's anything close to the $3/box Stash charges for theirs, you're
getting reamed. Loose kona-cha is worlds cheaper and better tasting.

--crymad

[crymad]

Post by crymad
Regarding the boiling water issue, I called Stash just moments ago and
asked them about their brewing recommendations. The kind lady said to
let boiling water sit for a bit so it drops to the 180-190 F range, and
then steep for 2-3 minutes

Well I also called Stash and asked if this were the policy and they said
that the employee's manual specifically states their green tea requires
boiling no exceptions. Psst if you boil your teas you won't get employees
fired.

Can anyone here make sense of this?

[Rebecca Ore]

Post by crymad

Post by crymad
Regarding the boiling water issue, I called Stash just moments ago and
asked them about their brewing recommendations. The kind lady said to
let boiling water sit for a bit so it drops to the 180-190 F range, and
then steep for 2-3 minutes

Well I also called Stash and asked if this were the policy and they said
that the employee's manual specifically states their green tea requires
boiling no exceptions. Psst if you boil your teas you won't get employees
fired.

Can anyone here make sense of this?

Troll.

[Space Cowboy]

Post by crymad

that the employee's manual specifically states their green tea requires

boiling

Post by crymad

Psst if you boil your teas you won't get employees
fired.

Can anyone here make sense of this?

If you have to explain the punch line it's not funny. Obviously nobody has
been fired for violating a policy in the employee's manual or too many as I
suspect on the public dole.

Jim

[Jon Nossen]

My two cents: I think you may be oversteeping your tea. Green
teas should rarely steep for longer than 2 1/2 or 3 minutes. I
don't have much experience with Japanese greens, but it's my
impression that they should steep for an even shorter time, no
longer than 1 or 2 minutes.

And by the way, I agree that the water temperature for greens
should always be less than boiling. Sorry, Space Cowboy... :-)

Though I must add that it *might* be different with tea bag
greens...

Jon

Post by Zephyrus
I've got to throw my support to the "lower temperature" group.
I have very little experience with greens (I would not even

say that I

Post by Zephyrus
have a "taste" for them), but I find that boiling water can

ruin a

Post by Zephyrus
tea. Even water at 125 degrees Farenheit can make a tea

bitter,

Post by Zephyrus
yellowish, and unsavory that at 110 degrees or less would be a
beautiful, green, sweet, frangrant liquor.
This is true even with the $5 per 1/4 lb. Upton green I'm

trying to

Post by Zephyrus
acclimate myself to now.
Z

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
Which is precisely the case here. The poster can't taste

the difference

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
between boil and someone's optimum temperature. It's all

the same to him

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
and no matter what he does it still smells like day old

cut grass.

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad
You're jumping to conclusions here. In fact, Mr. Zero's

original post

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad
seems to be the cry of help from someone stewing in hot

water. To Mr.

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad
Zero: Try making your tea with significantly cooler water,

say 60-80 C.

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
I've
been to enough tea tastings in my lifetime
and stated I made a tea with so and so temperature but

used boiling and

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
invariably most would agree the tea tasted better at my

fictious

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
temperature and so would you.

Don't bet on it. On those occasions when I have my wife

make tea for

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad
me, I can immediately tell when she's mistakenly used 170 F

water for my

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad
155 F tea. Or when she's correctly used 155 F water, but

forgotten to

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad
pre-heat the kyuusu.

Post by Space Cowboy
The only concession I ever make to a green tea and boiling

water is too

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
rinse the leaves with cold water first. That is THE only

way to make

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
Gyokuro and in my case I need to hold it with two hands.

You could have a breakthrough on your hands. I'll pass on

this "steamy

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad
mug o' gyokuro" style to a nation of backwards Japanese the

first chance

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad
I get.
--crymad

[WNW]

Post by Jon Nossen
My two cents: I think you may be oversteeping your tea. Green
teas should rarely steep for longer than 2 1/2 or 3 minutes. I
don't have much experience with Japanese greens, but it's my
impression that they should steep for an even shorter time, no
longer than 1 or 2 minutes.
And by the way, I agree that the water temperature for greens
should always be less than boiling. Sorry, Space Cowboy... :-)
Though I must add that it *might* be different with tea bag
greens...
Jon

Some will disagree with me, but my basic infusion times for preparing
Japanese green teas (sencha, gyokuro, and sometimes bancha) are:

Infusion #1: just over one minute
Infusion #2: pour on the water, and immediately pour it off
Infusion #3: about 10 or 15 seconds
Infusion #4: about 1.5 - 2 minutes

Each tea will be different of course, but you can work around those figures
and get a very good cup. This is using water that is just approaching what
you might call 'quite warm'... and with gyokuro, the water is nearly
lukewarm.

N.

[Zephyrus]

Neal, I really can't figure out whom you're addressing! :-) Maybe this
thread has raged itself to death.

If you were talking to me, I've tried a sencha, some random cheap
greens I really can't remember, several gunpowders, a tongyu mountain
green, and one lung ching (& maybe more that I've forgot). While I do
like them, I so prefer Oolongs and pu-erhs that I can never keep up a
green habit long enough to develop a "taste".

Maybe someday.

Z

Post by Space Cowboy

Post by Zephyrus
I've got to throw my support to the "lower temperature" group.
I have very little experience with greens (I would not even say that I
have a "taste" for them), but I find that boiling water can ruin a
tea. Even water at 125 degrees Farenheit can make a tea bitter,
yellowish, and unsavory that at 110 degrees or less would be a
beautiful, green, sweet, frangrant liquor.
This is true even with the $5 per 1/4 lb. Upton green I'm trying to
acclimate myself to now.
Z

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
Which is precisely the case here. The poster can't taste the

difference

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
between boil and someone's optimum temperature. It's all the same to

him

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
and no matter what he does it still smells like day old cut grass.

You're jumping to conclusions here. In fact, Mr. Zero's original post
seems to be the cry of help from someone stewing in hot water. To Mr.
Zero: Try making your tea with significantly cooler water, say 60-80 C.

Post by Space Cowboy
I've
been to enough tea tastings in my lifetime
and stated I made a tea with so and so temperature but used boiling

and

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
invariably most would agree the tea tasted better at my fictious
temperature and so would you.

Don't bet on it. On those occasions when I have my wife make tea for
me, I can immediately tell when she's mistakenly used 170 F water for my
155 F tea. Or when she's correctly used 155 F water, but forgotten to
pre-heat the kyuusu.

Post by Space Cowboy
The only concession I ever make to a green tea and boiling water is

too

Post by Zephyrus

Post by crymad

Post by Space Cowboy
rinse the leaves with cold water first. That is THE only way to make
Gyokuro and in my case I need to hold it with two hands.

You could have a breakthrough on your hands. I'll pass on this "steamy
mug o' gyokuro" style to a nation of backwards Japanese the first chance
I get.
--crymad

I'm curious.. what type(s) of green tea have you tried so far? There are so
many different types and an infinite variety of flavors. Are you saying
you've found *none* so far that you've enjoyed at all?
N.

[WNW]

Post by Zephyrus
Neal, I really can't figure out whom you're addressing! :-) Maybe this
thread has raged itself to death.
If you were talking to me, I've tried a sencha, some random cheap
greens I really can't remember, several gunpowders, a tongyu mountain
green, and one lung ching (& maybe more that I've forgot). While I do
like them, I so prefer Oolongs and pu-erhs that I can never keep up a
green habit long enough to develop a "taste".
Maybe someday.
Z

Yes, this thread has gotten a little ragged. But I was addressing you. I'd
say stick with the finer Japanese greens (sencha and gyokuro or even a good
bancha); they have the purest 'green' tea flavor I've found in any tea so
far. Many of the Chinese greens tend to have brothy or smoky or murky
overtones -- many.. but not all, of course. But with a fine quality
Japanese green tea, you just can't go wrong. I'm very biased, of course.
;)

N.

[crymad]

Post by WNW
Yes, this thread has gotten a little ragged. But I was addressing you. I'd
say stick with the finer Japanese greens (sencha and gyokuro or even a good
bancha); they have the purest 'green' tea flavor I've found in any tea so
far. Many of the Chinese greens tend to have brothy or smoky or murky
overtones -- many.. but not all, of course.

I've found this to be the case as well. But I'm always open for
experimentation. Any recommendations for a Chinese green that most
closely approaches the live greeniness of a Japanese?

--crymad

[WNW]

Post by crymad

Post by WNW
Yes, this thread has gotten a little ragged. But I was addressing you.

I'd

Post by crymad

Post by WNW
say stick with the finer Japanese greens (sencha and gyokuro or even a good
bancha); they have the purest 'green' tea flavor I've found in any tea so
far. Many of the Chinese greens tend to have brothy or smoky or murky
overtones -- many.. but not all, of course.

I've found this to be the case as well. But I'm always open for
experimentation. Any recommendations for a Chinese green that most
closely approaches the live greeniness of a Japanese?
--crymad

I've not found many Chinese green teas that closely approached the 'clean
green-ness' of a Japanese green tea. At the moment I know of none for sale
that I could claim are all that close; to my palate, even the Chinese sencha
is distinctly different in flavor from any Japanese sencha I've tried.

N

[crymad]

Post by WNW

Post by crymad
I've found this to be the case as well. But I'm always open for
experimentation. Any recommendations for a Chinese green that most
closely approaches the live greeniness of a Japanese?
--crymad

I've not found many Chinese green teas that closely approached the 'clean
green-ness' of a Japanese green tea. At the moment I know of none for sale
that I could claim are all that close; to my palate, even the Chinese sencha
is distinctly different in flavor from any Japanese sencha I've tried.

Which begs the question: Why my interest in finding Japanese-sytle
green teas from China when those from Japan already fit the bill? I
should be happy in my complacency.

--crymad

[Lewis Perin]

Post by crymad

Post by WNW

Post by crymad
I've found this to be the case as well. But I'm always open for
experimentation. Any recommendations for a Chinese green that most
closely approaches the live greeniness of a Japanese?
--crymad

I've not found many Chinese green teas that closely approached the
'clean green-ness' of a Japanese green tea. At the moment I know
of none for sale that I could claim are all that close; to my
palate, even the Chinese sencha is distinctly different in flavor
from any Japanese sencha I've tried.

Which begs the question: Why my interest in finding Japanese-sytle
green teas from China when those from Japan already fit the bill? I
should be happy in my complacency.

Either that or allow for the possibility that your taste may change in
ways that might let you appreciate other possibilities in greens,
"dirty" or otherwise.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / ***@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

[WNW]

Post by crymad

Post by WNW

Post by crymad
I've found this to be the case as well. But I'm always open for
experimentation. Any recommendations for a Chinese green that most
closely approaches the live greeniness of a Japanese?
--crymad

I've not found many Chinese green teas that closely approached the 'clean
green-ness' of a Japanese green tea. At the moment I know of none for sale
that I could claim are all that close; to my palate, even the Chinese sencha
is distinctly different in flavor from any Japanese sencha I've tried.

Which begs the question: Why my interest in finding Japanese-sytle
green teas from China when those from Japan already fit the bill? I
should be happy in my complacency.
--crymad

Don't get me wrong -- some of the Chinese greens are quite nice; a good
Dragonwell can be very enjoyable. Even some of the Vietnamese greens aren't
bad. But if you like the uniqueness of the Japanese greens, from what I've
tasted so far, it's not going to be easy to find a very similar tea from
China.

N.

[Michael Plant]

Post by WNW

Post by crymad

Post by WNW

Post by crymad
I've found this to be the case as well. But I'm always open for
experimentation. Any recommendations for a Chinese green that most
closely approaches the live greeniness of a Japanese?
--crymad

I've not found many Chinese green teas that closely approached the

'clean

Post by crymad

Post by WNW
green-ness' of a Japanese green tea. At the moment I know of none for

sale

Post by crymad

Post by WNW
that I could claim are all that close; to my palate, even the Chinese

sencha

Post by crymad

Post by WNW
is distinctly different in flavor from any Japanese sencha I've tried.

Which begs the question: Why my interest in finding Japanese-sytle
green teas from China when those from Japan already fit the bill? I
should be happy in my complacency.
--crymad

Don't get me wrong -- some of the Chinese greens are quite nice; a good
Dragonwell can be very enjoyable. Even some of the Vietnamese greens aren't
bad. But if you like the uniqueness of the Japanese greens, from what I've
tasted so far, it's not going to be easy to find a very similar tea from
China.
N.

On Japanese and Chinese Greens

I think it's an apples and oranges issue. I really like certain styles of
Japanese Sencha and I love the better Japanese Gyokuro I've drunk, but I'd
be very much surprised to find their styles duplicated or even approached in
a Chinese green. Sometimes, however, a bastardization of styles can be just
the ticket: I think the best Darjeeling "oolong"I've drunk were
extraordinary.


On Teabags

Think what you will, I don't use teabags. I'm sure if you place a high
quality tea in a bag and put the bag in the appropriate amount of
appropriately heated water, it will yield up a fine tea. But, I'd miss the
look of the leaves in the water, which is part of the pleasure of the thing.
I'd be loath to hide the beautiful bright green colors of a good gyokuro in
a bag. For convenience, I use a Dutch glass strainer cup. (I do have to
clean the strainer. Life is tough.)

Anyway, just my four cents.

Michael

[crymad]

Post by WNW

Post by crymad
Which begs the question: Why my interest in finding Japanese-sytle
green teas from China when those from Japan already fit the bill? I
should be happy in my complacency.
--crymad

Don't get me wrong -- some of the Chinese greens are quite nice; a good
Dragonwell can be very enjoyable. Even some of the Vietnamese greens aren't
bad. But if you like the uniqueness of the Japanese greens, from what I've
tasted so far, it's not going to be easy to find a very similar tea from
China.

Then so be it. Most all tea-loving Japanese spend their entire lives
happily drinking tea from their homeland without ever feeling the need
to investigate the offerings of their neighbors. The Chinese are
probably the same way. This urge to "broaden one's horizons" seems an
American affliction. Must we as tea drinkers insist on boundless
variety, 31-derful flavors to choose from?

--crymad

[Lewis Perin]

Post by crymad

[...if you want Japanese taste, drink Japanese tea...]

Then so be it. Most all tea-loving Japanese spend their entire lives
happily drinking tea from their homeland without ever feeling the need
to investigate the offerings of their neighbors. The Chinese are
probably the same way. This urge to "broaden one's horizons" seems an
American affliction.

Affliction? I don't feel harmed by it. I don't think the urge to try
a variety of tastes is characteristically American, either. And if
you drink sencha, gyokuro, hojicha *and* kukicha, you're in danger of
succumbing yourself.

Post by crymad
Must we as tea drinkers insist on boundless variety, 31-derful
flavors to choose from?

We as tea drinkers may do as we please.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / ***@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

[Michael Plant]

Post by Lewis Perin

Post by crymad

[...if you want Japanese taste, drink Japanese tea...]

Then so be it. Most all tea-loving Japanese spend their entire lives
happily drinking tea from their homeland without ever feeling the need
to investigate the offerings of their neighbors. The Chinese are
probably the same way. This urge to "broaden one's horizons" seems an
American affliction.

Affliction? I don't feel harmed by it. I don't think the urge to try
a variety of tastes is characteristically American, either. And if
you drink sencha, gyokuro, hojicha *and* kukicha, you're in danger of
succumbing yourself.

Post by crymad
Must we as tea drinkers insist on boundless variety, 31-derful
flavors to choose from?

We as tea drinkers may do as we please.
/Lew

If the point is to build a fence around experience, than I agree with Lew.
But, there is the larger issue of trying every tea in the world vs becoming
intimate with a small number, if you will. I remember Hamada, a Japanese
potter of note, once saying in answer to a question as to why he used the
same simple design on his pots over and over again that it was different
every time he painted it, that he was intimate with the design. I sometimes
find myself ranging into too broad a field of tea types, spreading myself
too thin, as it were. There is definitely something to be said for getting
to know a tea really well rather than flitting about. Crymad's point is
well taken.

Michael

[Julie C.]

Post by Michael Plant
But, there is the larger issue of trying every tea in the world vs becoming
intimate with a small number, if you will.

This is not an issue. You can try every tea in the world and still be
intimate with a small number. You can drink only a few and still know
next to nothing about tea. You can sample every tea in the world without
gaining an understanding of tea. Etc.


My point wasn't about choosing between "trying every tea in the world"
or "trully knowing only a few".

My point was "Don't drink only Martian tea because you happen to be Martian"

[Julie C.]

Sorry. Wrong.
[...]
Anyway, for what it's worth, that's my opinion.

Basically you're saying : "I don't care. My opinions have priority over
any argument"

Instead, explain why it's especially desirable to drink only teas from
the same ethnic background as yours.

[Her Serene Highness]

Post by Julie C.

Sorry. Wrong.
[...]
Anyway, for what it's worth, that's my opinion.

Basically you're saying : "I don't care. My opinions have priority over
any argument"
Instead, explain why it's especially desirable to drink only teas from
the same ethnic background as yours.

I'm confused- I didn't realize Michael was from South Africa, Brazil,
India, Pakistan, Malawi, Madagascar, Japan, China, Vietnam, or any other tea
growing country. The last time I heard, he was American.

[Julie C.]

Post by Her Serene Highness
The last time I heard, he was American.

Then, with his logic, he should especially drink Coca Cola and tells us
the deep meaning of this beverage deeply rooted in American history. :P

[Michael Plant]

Post by Julie C.

Post by Her Serene Highness
The last time I heard, he was American.

Then, with his logic, he should especially drink Coca Cola and tells us
the deep meaning of this beverage deeply rooted in American history. :P

Couldn't we talk about bourbon? Now, there's an American drink worthy of
discussion.

Michael

[Julie C.]

Post by Michael Plant
Couldn't we talk about bourbon? Now, there's an American drink worthy of
discussion.

Nah...with Bourbon this joke wouldn't be as funny (ridicule). :-)

[Michael Plant]

Post by Julie C.

Post by Michael Plant
Couldn't we talk about bourbon? Now, there's an American drink worthy of
discussion.

Nah...with Bourbon this joke wouldn't be as funny (ridicule). :-)

Yeah, but after a couple shots, it'd hardly matter.

[Julie C.]

Post by Michael Plant
Yeah, but after a couple shots, it'd hardly matter.

Another reason to choose Coke :P

[Julie C.]

Post by Her Serene Highness
The last time I heard, he was American.

Then, to not contradict himself, he should not waste his American
heritage on tea. He should drink only Coca Cola and tell us about the
deep meaning of this all American beverage.

[blues Lyne]

Post by Julie C.

Post by Her Serene Highness
The last time I heard, he was American.

Then, to not contradict himself, he should not waste his American
heritage on tea. He should drink only Coca Cola and tell us about the
deep meaning of this all American beverage.

I think if you read what he said:

"It's perfectly OK to drink only Martian tea for any reason at all;
especially, I think, if your Martian tea tradition has been rubbed and
polished by thousands of years of history. It's as OK to do this as it is to
explore as widely as you can range."

...you'll see he is saying both approaches are equally valid.

I see no contradiction in him being American and drinking tea, in view of
what he wrote. He said it was OK to drink Martian tea for any reason, not
just if you are Martian, but if you are Martian, it is especially OK. I am
fairly new to tea and I am trying a variety of types. I'm enjoying the new
tastes and experiences. However, should I decide I only want to drink
Japanese green teas, exploring all the nuances of that style, getting to
know it intimately, I'm sure I'd find that very enjoyable also.

When I was a child, my father traveled quite a bit with his job. My mom was
a school teacher, so summers were spent with the family packed into the car
traveling the US. By the time I was six I had been in every state in the
continental US, and had been through most of the national parks. My dad
really enjoyed driving through as much as possible, to see many different
things. I on the other hand wanted to get out of the car and explore the
woods or the meadows, to experience that one thing in greater detail. Which
one of us was wrong? My answer would be neither. Now I'm 40 and we no
longer vacation together. Dad still drives (although he has discovered the
joys of finding a good beach to walk). He can give you a detailed account
of what you'll find along most of the highways and byways of this country.
I camp in the woods and walk, or just sit by a stream. I can identify most
of the wild flowers and plants that inhabit those woods and meadows. We get
along fine and couldn't care less what the other's approach to vacation is,
and don't feel the need to convert each other. Instead we share our
experiences and both are richer because of the difference.

Blues

Sorry to be so long winded =^)

[Her Serene Highness]

Post by blues Lyne

Post by Julie C.

Post by Her Serene Highness
The last time I heard, he was American.

Then, to not contradict himself, he should not waste his American
heritage on tea. He should drink only Coca Cola and tell us about the
deep meaning of this all American beverage.

"It's perfectly OK to drink only Martian tea for any reason at all;
especially, I think, if your Martian tea tradition has been rubbed and
polished by thousands of years of history. It's as OK to do this as it is to
explore as widely as you can range."
...you'll see he is saying both approaches are equally valid.
I see no contradiction in him being American and drinking tea, in view of
what he wrote. He said it was OK to drink Martian tea for any reason, not
just if you are Martian, but if you are Martian, it is especially OK.

Why is it especially ok? I'm black. I happen to dislike pork. Should I eat
it because it's associated with being black? I'm also Jewish. Is it
especially ok for me to eat chicken soup?
How is especially ok different from merely ok?

[Michael Plant]

Post by Her Serene Highness

Post by blues Lyne

Post by Julie C.

Post by Her Serene Highness
The last time I heard, he was American.

Then, to not contradict himself, he should not waste his American
heritage on tea. He should drink only Coca Cola and tell us about the
deep meaning of this all American beverage.

"It's perfectly OK to drink only Martian tea for any reason at all;
especially, I think, if your Martian tea tradition has been rubbed and
polished by thousands of years of history. It's as OK to do this as it

is

Post by Her Serene Highness
to

Post by blues Lyne
explore as widely as you can range."
...you'll see he is saying both approaches are equally valid.
I see no contradiction in him being American and drinking tea, in view

of

Post by Her Serene Highness

Post by blues Lyne
what he wrote. He said it was OK to drink Martian tea for any reason,

not

Post by Her Serene Highness

Post by blues Lyne
just if you are Martian, but if you are Martian, it is especially OK.

Why is it especially ok? I'm black. I happen to dislike pork. Should I

eat

Post by Her Serene Highness
it because it's associated with being black? I'm also Jewish. Is it
especially ok for me to eat chicken soup?
How is especially ok different from merely ok?

He said it was perfectly ok, he also said it was perfectly ok to do the
opposite. Why are trying to turn a choice into a thing you have to do. He
didn't say if you are a Martian you have to drink Martian tea, he said it
was as ok to do this as it is to "explore as widely as you can range".
In other words I am a white Irish American and it is ok for me to steep
myself in black or Jewish culture. If it is ok for me to choose to do, it
certainly must be "especially" ok for someone who is black or Jewish to
choose to steep themselves in their own culture. They don't have to, but if
they choose to, who am I to say that is wrong.
Frankly, I'm glad the world has both those who want to get to know one thing
very well, and those who want to get to know a little about a lot of things.
They both bring a valuable perspective, and the world would be less rich if
there was only one or the other. I'm a little surprised, you don't strike
me as someone who likes to be told there is only one way to do things.
Blues

Blues, that's pretty much it. Well said, me thinks.

To which I would only reiterate that some traditions -- tea traditions in
China, Japan, and other places of course as well, for example -- take on a
special beauty because they've been honed and polished and adapted to such a
fine degree over the mellenia.

And as somebody said before, it's OK to range far and wide and yet go more
deeply into some one tradition or other too; in a sense a third option.

As far as I'm concerned pretty much everything is cool except intolerance.
Well, that is to say, not *everything*.

Michael

[WNW]

In other words I am a white Irish American and it is ok for me to steep
myself in black or Jewish culture. If it is ok for me to choose to do,

it

certainly must be "especially" ok for someone who is black or Jewish to
choose to steep themselves in their own culture.

You didn't answer the question : "Why it's *especially* ok to drink
Martian tea if you are Martian?"
Because someone only knows you by the (green) color of your skin?
Because Martians are expected to drink Martian tea?
Because Martians tea is the only one good enough for Martians?
Because it's better for everybody if Martians stay on Mars doing
whatever Martians do?
...
Why?

If the two of you are so familiar with Martians and their beverages of
choice, I really wonder whether it's tea you're drinking, after all.

N.

[WNW]

Post by WNW
If the two of you are so familiar with Martians and their beverages of
choice, I really wonder whether it's tea you're drinking, after all.

You're right. Maybe we should be more careful.
I heard somewhere that it's *especially* harmful to drink a tea that
doesn't agree with one's ethnic background. One could even loose deep
understanding. ;)
But seriously, I used Martians as an example, because, from my everyday
experience (At work, I'm in contact with a lot of foreigners all the
time), I learned it's hard to make a point when nationalities are

involved.

I'm always amazed by Americans who don't care for foreign cultures
because eventually they will surrender to the American way of life, by
Canadians who believe everybody can live in peace despite of cultural
differences, by French people who believe their culture is more rational
than other's, by Middle-Easterners who believe "satanic" Western
cultures should be abolished in favor of Islamic culture, by Japanese
who believe all foreign cultures are amusing but not trustworthy because
not invested with the Japanese understanding of life, etc.
All those simplified views of culture make me a strong advocate of
necessity of looking "outside of the box", that is, looking outside
one's culture to identify what is persistently true.
For instance, somebody asked here if eating tea is dangerous. American,
Canadian, French, Japanese, etc. tea specialists wouldn't be able to
answer this question. But Kitti Cha Sangmanee, an Indian(?), president
of the French tea shop Mariage Frères, would have jumped on the occasion
to tell us the recipe of the "laphet thout", Birmanian tea salad, or the
"mieng kham", a Laotian hors-d'oeuvre.
Sometimes the next step to a deeper understanding can be found in far
away places...like Mars!

When you do make contact with the Martians, I will indeed be interested to
learn what they drink (and eat), and I will also be interested to know of
your methods of contact.

N.

[Julie C.]

Post by WNW
When you do make contact with the Martians, I will indeed be interested to
learn what they drink (and eat), and I will also be interested to know of
your methods of contact.

I swear you'll be the first I contact.

[Michael Plant]

Post by WNW
If the two of you are so familiar with Martians and their beverages of
choice, I really wonder whether it's tea you're drinking, after all.

You're right. Maybe we should be more careful.

snip

....simplified views of culture make me a strong advocate of
necessity of looking "outside of the box", that is, looking outside
one's culture to identify what is persistently true.

Hey, we're finding common ground. It's a paradigm shift thing. Those who
move the science along, or, better, shift it radically, are those who see
from a wholey other perspective; and those folks are usually from other
fields. They often suffer for their visions: Galileo, and friends, for
example. But, alas, Kuhn's getting bad press too these days. (The word
"necessity" in your above stated thought is, IMHO, arguable.)

snip

Sometimes the next step to a deeper understanding can be found in far
away places...like Mars!

Aha. The very essense of Anthropology. Good observation. I agree whole
heartedly. I love to travel and spent a number of years in places that
started out being Mars to me. I do however retain my previously stated
opinion about the specialness of steeping oneself in one's own culture. I'll
report more fully on the "why" of that last opinion later. Stay tuned.

Best,
Michael

[Julie C.]

Post by Michael Plant
Hey, we're finding common ground.

I'm glad we did. I'm sorry it took me many clumsy attempts before I
wrote understandable English.

Post by Michael Plant
The word "necessity" in your above stated thought is, IMHO, arguable.

You're right, "necessity" is too strong. Paradigm shifts (thank you for
the vocabulary) are "useful" tools in the quest of universal truths.

Post by Michael Plant
I do however retain my previously stated
opinion about the specialness of steeping oneself in one's own culture. I'll
report more fully on the "why" of that last opinion later. Stay tuned.

I wait anxiously. I think I will learn something from it.

[Julie C.]

....you'll see he is saying both approaches are equally valid.

Yes, I know.(*)

I'm not good at English. Surely, I didn't make myself understood. So I
try again :

The discussion started when Crymad told us it's a typical American
defect to try teas from other countries but yours. I objected and said
it's not a American defect, it's not a defect in the first place. Then
Micheal Plant told us he like what Crymad said because he prefer
specialization over poor knowledge of "every tea of the world". I told
him the discussion wasn't about the virtues of specialization, it's
about the mistake of thinking your ethnic origin dictates what you
should drink. Micheal then told me I was wrong because he likes his
opinion and he cherish traditions. I responded by telling him it's not a
valid argument. HSH joked that Micheal is an American therefore he
doesn't have a tea tradition to follow. I made a joke also by asking
Micheal to be a real American and drink Coke instead of tea.

I don't think specialization and personal preferences are wrong. But I
think you should not become a slave of your ethnic background.
Discoveries are an essential part of living. Also, I don't think it's
not enough to like one's own ideas to make them valid arguments.

--
(*)But it's my opinion he's wrong even if I agree with some of what he's
saying :P

[Michael Plant]

Post by Julie C.

....you'll see he is saying both approaches are equally valid.

Yes, I know.(*)
I'm not good at English. Surely, I didn't make myself understood. So I
The discussion started when Crymad told us it's a typical American
defect to try teas from other countries but yours. I objected and said
it's not a American defect, it's not a defect in the first place. Then
Micheal Plant told us he like what Crymad said because he prefer
specialization over poor knowledge of "every tea of the world". I told
him the discussion wasn't about the virtues of specialization, it's
about the mistake of thinking your ethnic origin dictates what you
should drink. Micheal then told me I was wrong because he likes his
opinion and he cherish traditions. I responded by telling him it's not a
valid argument. HSH joked that Micheal is an American therefore he
doesn't have a tea tradition to follow. I made a joke also by asking
Micheal to be a real American and drink Coke instead of tea.
I don't think specialization and personal preferences are wrong. But I
think you should not become a slave of your ethnic background.
Discoveries are an essential part of living. Also, I don't think it's
not enough to like one's own ideas to make them valid arguments.

I'm not trying to make an argument at all on any level; I'm just telling you
that I think everyone has a right to their own way, and I believe that
cultures benefit from age and abrasion. Perhaps that doesn't make sense to
you. Or perhaps you simply disagree with it. Either way, fine.

One person might find all he or she needs within his or her culture; others
might call that being a slave to to an ethnic background. I think being a
slave to an ethnic background would be more true of people who judge others
based on their own background: Ethnocentricity.

Post by Julie C.
(*)But it's my opinion he's wrong even if I agree with some of what he's
saying :P

And I respect your opinion, and agree with most of what you say.

Michael

[Julie C.]

Post by Michael Plant
And I respect your opinion, and agree with most of what you say.

Everybody is entitled to have opinions. Opinions are a matter of
personal taste. They are not debatable point. So I won't argue about
your preferences and respect them as much as mine.

Post by Michael Plant
I'm not trying to make an argument at all on any level; I'm just telling you
that I think everyone has a right to their own way, and I believe that
cultures benefit from age and abrasion. Perhaps that doesn't make sense to
you. Or perhaps you simply disagree with it. Either way, fine.

Those statements are not simply opinions, they are debatable ideas.
Therefore, either ways are not fine.

I don't necessarily disagree with the truth of the statements you made.
It's how you link several statements together that make me question the
validity of your arguments.

Let me explain by borrowing the words found at
http://home.earthlink.net/~mylnir/debate/logic.me.html

" In logic, one speaks of an arguments validity, just like in
programming, you might speak of a program being syntactically correct.
Just like an argument that is valid is not necessarily a proof, a
program that is syntactically correct (obeys the rules of the
programming language) is not always properly done. When one speaks of
the validity of the argument, you are speaking of whether or not the
argument obeys the rules of logical argument. The truth or falsity of
the premises of an argument are irrelevant to the validity of an
argument. However, if an argument has true premises and is valid, then
the conclusion is true. This may seem simple, but it is one of the more
important ideas in logic. Sometimes one can reach some very startling
conclusions with logic, at which point you would probably ask if the
argument is valid, then are the premises true. But if the answer to both
is yes, then that conclusion must be true. "

Post by Michael Plant

Post by Julie C.
My point was "Don't drink only Martian tea because you happen to be Martian"

Sorry. Wrong. It's perfectly OK to drink only Martian tea for any
reason at all; especially, I think, if your Martian tea tradition has
been rubbed and polished by thousands of years of history. It's as OK
to do this as it is to explore as widely as you can range. The former
is getting bad press. Truly.
Anyway, for what it's worth, that's my opinion.

I disagree, *not because* I think the following statements are true (or
false) :

a) It's perfectly OK to drink only Martian tea for any reason at all;
b)Martian tea tradition has been rubbed and polished by thousands of
years of history;
c) It's as OK to [drink only Martian tea] as it is to explore as widely
as you can range;

, *not because* I think the following statements are true (or false) :

d) you happen to be a Martian;
e) you should exclusively drink Martian tea;

, *but because* (e=true) is not the consequence of (d=true).


You cannot prove my argument invalid because it's your opinion that a, b
and c are true, or because everybody is entitled to have an opinion.

I cannot agreed with :

If
(a=true) and (b=true) and (c=true)
or
(having opinions is legitimate)
Then
If
(d=true)
Then
(e=true)

Argh! I hope this time I made myself understandable. If not, just too
bad for me.

[Michael Plant]

Julie,

I read your post and pulled up the web site you cited. Although I don't have
time right now to read both more carefully -- and they deserve a more
careful reading -- I think one of the things I neglected to do was give you
more of the reasoning behind my opinions. But, I really feel instinctively
that opinions are just that. Let's call them hypotheses for the moment.

Anyway, more later.

I'm going to drink some monkey-picked competition tieguanyin this morning
and listen to a recording of Fischer-Dieskau singing Shubert's Winterreise.
I'm not sure this is the perfect combination at 10 past 5 in the morning,
but it works for me.

Best,
Michael

Post by Julie C.

Post by Michael Plant
And I respect your opinion, and agree with most of what you say.

Everybody is entitled to have opinions. Opinions are a matter of
personal taste. They are not debatable point. So I won't argue about
your preferences and respect them as much as mine.

Post by Michael Plant
I'm not trying to make an argument at all on any level; I'm just telling you
that I think everyone has a right to their own way, and I believe that
cultures benefit from age and abrasion. Perhaps that doesn't make sense to
you. Or perhaps you simply disagree with it. Either way, fine.

Those statements are not simply opinions, they are debatable ideas.
Therefore, either ways are not fine.
I don't necessarily disagree with the truth of the statements you made.
It's how you link several statements together that make me question the
validity of your arguments.
Let me explain by borrowing the words found at
http://home.earthlink.net/~mylnir/debate/logic.me.html
" In logic, one speaks of an arguments validity, just like in
programming, you might speak of a program being syntactically correct.
Just like an argument that is valid is not necessarily a proof, a
program that is syntactically correct (obeys the rules of the
programming language) is not always properly done. When one speaks of
the validity of the argument, you are speaking of whether or not the
argument obeys the rules of logical argument. The truth or falsity of
the premises of an argument are irrelevant to the validity of an
argument. However, if an argument has true premises and is valid, then
the conclusion is true. This may seem simple, but it is one of the more
important ideas in logic. Sometimes one can reach some very startling
conclusions with logic, at which point you would probably ask if the
argument is valid, then are the premises true. But if the answer to both
is yes, then that conclusion must be true. "

Post by Michael Plant

Post by Julie C.
My point was "Don't drink only Martian tea because you happen to be

Martian"

Post by Michael Plant
Sorry. Wrong. It's perfectly OK to drink only Martian tea for any
reason at all; especially, I think, if your Martian tea tradition has
been rubbed and polished by thousands of years of history. It's as OK
to do this as it is to explore as widely as you can range. The former
is getting bad press. Truly.
Anyway, for what it's worth, that's my opinion.

I disagree, *not because* I think the following statements are true (or
a) It's perfectly OK to drink only Martian tea for any reason at all;
b)Martian tea tradition has been rubbed and polished by thousands of
years of history;
c) It's as OK to [drink only Martian tea] as it is to explore as widely
as you can range;
d) you happen to be a Martian;
e) you should exclusively drink Martian tea;
, *but because* (e=true) is not the consequence of (d=true).
You cannot prove my argument invalid because it's your opinion that a, b
and c are true, or because everybody is entitled to have an opinion.
If
(a=true) and (b=true) and (c=true)
or
(having opinions is legitimate)
Then
If
(d=true)
Then
(e=true)
Argh! I hope this time I made myself understandable. If not, just too
bad for me.

[WNW]

Post by Michael Plant
Julie,
I read your post and pulled up the web site you cited. Although I don't have
time right now to read both more carefully -- and they deserve a more
careful reading -- I think one of the things I neglected to do was give you
more of the reasoning behind my opinions. But, I really feel instinctively
that opinions are just that. Let's call them hypotheses for the moment.
Anyway, more later.
I'm going to drink some monkey-picked competition tieguanyin this morning
and listen to a recording of Fischer-Dieskau singing Shubert's

Winterreise.

Post by Michael Plant
I'm not sure this is the perfect combination at 10 past 5 in the morning,
but it works for me.
Best,
Michael

Post by Julie C.

Post by Michael Plant
And I respect your opinion, and agree with most of what you say.

Everybody is entitled to have opinions. Opinions are a matter of
personal taste. They are not debatable point. So I won't argue about
your preferences and respect them as much as mine.

Post by Michael Plant
I'm not trying to make an argument at all on any level; I'm just telling you
that I think everyone has a right to their own way, and I believe that
cultures benefit from age and abrasion. Perhaps that doesn't make sense to
you. Or perhaps you simply disagree with it. Either way, fine.

Those statements are not simply opinions, they are debatable ideas.
Therefore, either ways are not fine.
I don't necessarily disagree with the truth of the statements you made.
It's how you link several statements together that make me question the
validity of your arguments.
Let me explain by borrowing the words found at
http://home.earthlink.net/~mylnir/debate/logic.me.html
" In logic, one speaks of an arguments validity, just like in
programming, you might speak of a program being syntactically correct.
Just like an argument that is valid is not necessarily a proof, a
program that is syntactically correct (obeys the rules of the
programming language) is not always properly done. When one speaks of
the validity of the argument, you are speaking of whether or not the
argument obeys the rules of logical argument. The truth or falsity of
the premises of an argument are irrelevant to the validity of an
argument. However, if an argument has true premises and is valid, then
the conclusion is true. This may seem simple, but it is one of the more
important ideas in logic. Sometimes one can reach some very startling
conclusions with logic, at which point you would probably ask if the
argument is valid, then are the premises true. But if the answer to both
is yes, then that conclusion must be true. "

Post by Michael Plant

Post by Julie C.
My point was "Don't drink only Martian tea because you happen to be

Martian"

Post by Michael Plant
Sorry. Wrong. It's perfectly OK to drink only Martian tea for any
reason at all; especially, I think, if your Martian tea tradition has
been rubbed and polished by thousands of years of history. It's as OK
to do this as it is to explore as widely as you can range. The former
is getting bad press. Truly.
Anyway, for what it's worth, that's my opinion.

I disagree, *not because* I think the following statements are true (or
a) It's perfectly OK to drink only Martian tea for any reason at all;
b)Martian tea tradition has been rubbed and polished by thousands of
years of history;
c) It's as OK to [drink only Martian tea] as it is to explore as widely
as you can range;
d) you happen to be a Martian;
e) you should exclusively drink Martian tea;
, *but because* (e=true) is not the consequence of (d=true).
You cannot prove my argument invalid because it's your opinion that a, b
and c are true, or because everybody is entitled to have an opinion.
If
(a=true) and (b=true) and (c=true)
or
(having opinions is legitimate)
Then
If
(d=true)
Then
(e=true)
Argh! I hope this time I made myself understandable. If not, just too
bad for me.

Have you tried any of Special Teas' new Monkey-Picked Ti Guan Yin? It's
very good. Fans of baozhong and jade oolong styles will like it especially.
It's very floral, delicate, and smooth... and generous with the infusions.

N.

[Julie C.]

Post by Michael Plant
I think one of the things I neglected to do was give you
more of the reasoning behind my opinions. But, I really feel instinctively
that opinions are just that.

The problem with "opinions" is that they can be beliefs, conclusions,
sentiments or personal insights held with confidence but not
substantiated by positive knowledge or proof. One cannot make a point
with those kinds of opinions.

The other problem is the ambiguity of words like "opinion". They change
meaning all the time.

"In my opinion, this is true" means "this is my conviction", "this is
my feeling", "this is my belief", "this is a fact known only to me",
"this is merely a impression", "this is what needs to be done", "this is
the most plausible conclusion given the information I have right now",
"this is my judgment as an expert", "this is the prevailing view",
"this is not in contradiction with legal principles", "this is what I
want", ...

This is why it doesn't matter if your opinion is true or not before
seeing the reasoning behind it.

By the way, it doesn't mean your judgment and your feelings are
worthless for me. It only means you need to do more than just express
opinions to convince me.

[Her Serene Highness]

Post by Julie C.

....you'll see he is saying both approaches are equally valid.

Yes, I know.(*)
I'm not good at English. Surely, I didn't make myself understood. So I
The discussion started when Crymad told us it's a typical American
defect to try teas from other countries but yours. I objected and said
it's not a American defect, it's not a defect in the first place. Then
Micheal Plant told us he like what Crymad said because he prefer
specialization over poor knowledge of "every tea of the world". I told
him the discussion wasn't about the virtues of specialization, it's
about the mistake of thinking your ethnic origin dictates what you
should drink. Micheal then told me I was wrong because he likes his
opinion and he cherish traditions. I responded by telling him it's not a
valid argument. HSH joked that Micheal is an American therefore he
doesn't have a tea tradition to follow. I made a joke also by asking
Micheal to be a real American and drink Coke instead of tea.
I don't think specialization and personal preferences are wrong. But I
think you should not become a slave of your ethnic background.
Discoveries are an essential part of living. Also, I don't think it's
not enough to like one's own ideas to make them valid arguments.
--
(*)But it's my opinion he's wrong even if I agree with some of what he's
saying :P

And quite frankly- America doesn't produce tea in large enough or good
enough quantities to validate such statements. Lipton's is not grown in
America. Neither is Red Rose.
It is not 'especially good' for me a a black person to follow black
'traditions'. Eating fatty ham hocks is bad for me. I was raised Catholic
and now follow Judiasm and Buddhism- I never grew up with gospel, which is
seen as 'traditional' (it's not in my family). I'm not tall enough to play
basketball. I don't make very good pancakes. I prefer white potatoes to
rice. I can't play blues to save my life, and I sing baroque music. I also
love Japanese cuisine- if I never had another pork rib again, I'd be fine.

In other words, why is it especially good? Should all Irish people drink
excessively, join the IRA and attend church regularly? Should all Jews leave
work early on Friday and never eat ham sandwiches or have food in the houses
of gentiles? Should mixed- ethnicity couples not eat each other's cooking?
Should the Japanese stop drinking bubble tea, give up curry and spaghetti,
and throw away all their Western clothes? Should the Scots paint themselves
blue and wear kilts to work? WHY? Because Michael thinks so? Then as Julie
suggested, he should be directed to the soda aisle. Not only that, but he
needs to give up his gaiwans and teapots on the way there- because as far as
he's told us and as far as people on the list who have met him know, Michael
is an American of European descent. From now on he should only drink
lemonade, watered-down beer, and Dr. Pepper. And quite frankly, I don't know
if he should be allowed the lemonade or watered-down beer. Benjamin Franklin
and his associates drank warm British-style beer, and lemons are not
indigenous to North America. What Michael will eat while on his traditional
kick, I don't know. Pizza is straight out, and so are hot dogs. Sushi is out
of the question. I think Michael can have steak, cornmeal mush with honey
and butter, milk, and perhaps some carrots and peas. Most of the 'American'
diet has developed since heavy immigration after 1880, and is therefore
fairly new-fangled. Sorry but no mac and cheese, at least not in its current
tasty form.

[Julie C.]

If it is your culture, why
isn't it particularly ok for you to follow it's traditions?

Because all traditions are not particularly ok for me.

If you find that Chinese tea as opposed to Japanese tea
causes health risks then you have a valid argument for the Chinese drinking
Japanese tea.

No. This is not a valid argument. A good advice would be to not drinking
Chinese tea, whoever you are.

But if it is ok for someone from another culture to follow
the traditions of Chinese tea, it must be especially ok for those who came
up with the tradition in the first place to do the same.

No. Traditions adopted by my ancestors are not necessarily appropriate
for me to do. For example, setting adulterous wives on fire is not
*especially* ok for Indians even if a German guy murdered his spouse
this way.

[blues Lyne]

If you find that Chinese tea as opposed to Japanese tea

Post by Julie C.

causes health risks then you have a valid argument for the Chinese drinking
Japanese tea.

No. This is not a valid argument. A good advice would be to not drinking
Chinese tea, whoever you are.

So heath risk are not a valid argument for not drinking something, but good
advice is to never drink it, with no reason given? I like good lung jings,
keemuns and Yunnans, but I shouldn't drink them because you say so, no
reason given? I don't think so. Besides this was in response to her asking
if she should eat pork, even though it isn't good for her, because of
tradition. My point was, since the discussion is about tea, the pork
example wasn't relevant unless she was trying to say the tea tradition of a
certain culture poses a health risk.

Post by Julie C.
But if it is ok for someone from another culture to follow

the traditions of Chinese tea, it must be especially ok for those who came
up with the tradition in the first place to do the same.

No. Traditions adopted by my ancestors are not necessarily appropriate
for me to do. For example, setting adulterous wives on fire is not
*especially* ok for Indians even if a German guy murdered his spouse
this way.

This is getting so ridiculous. We are talking about tea traditions not
setting spouses on fire. Is it part of the Chinese tea tradition to set
anyone on fire? If so you are right nobody should follow it. If not, what
does what you wrote have to do with my statement. If you equate tea
traditions with killing people by horrific means, you need to share what you
are smoking with the rest of the group, so we can get on the same page. I
would also argue that if "a" German guy murdered his wife by setting her on
fire, this doesn't make a German tradition, and it "especially" doesn't make
it an Indian tradition. Besides, what I said was "if it is ok for someone
from another culture...", in your example I would say it is not ok for
anyone from any culture.

Anyway I'm out of this discussion. We are talking about tea, and the
outlandish examples the two of you are using have nothing to do with tea and
are getting so outrageous and silly, it's become a useless discussion. So
I'll leave it this way. In my home we have the freedom to choose to drink
only one type of tea, or to drink many varieties. If you choose to only
allow many varieties to be consumed in your home, no problem. If you come
to my home and try to tell us we must do it your way, be ready for a real
fight.

Enjoy some tea, what ever kind you wish, made in what ever way you wish.
I'm going to do the same.

Blues

Post by Julie C.

If it is your culture, why
isn't it particularly ok for you to follow it's traditions?

Because all traditions are not particularly ok for me.

If you find that Chinese tea as opposed to Japanese tea
causes health risks then you have a valid argument for the Chinese drinking
Japanese tea.

No. This is not a valid argument. A good advice would be to not drinking
Chinese tea, whoever you are.

But if it is ok for someone from another culture to follow
the traditions of Chinese tea, it must be especially ok for those who came
up with the tradition in the first place to do the same.

No. Traditions adopted by my ancestors are not necessarily appropriate
for me to do. For example, setting adulterous wives on fire is not
*especially* ok for Indians even if a German guy murdered his spouse
this way.

[Julie C.]

Post by blues Lyne
So heath risk are not a valid argument for not drinking something

Yes, this an extremely valid argument. Because this argument applies to
everybody, Chinese or not.

Post by blues Lyne
My point was, since the discussion is about tea, the pork
example wasn't relevant unless she was trying to say the tea tradition of a
certain culture poses a health risk.

We don't care about pork. We could have chosen anything else : Martians,
dogs, dolls, etc. It doesn't matter. They are just *examples* of
statements. We don't care about the truth of those statements because
what we are trying to show you is that your argument - how you link
statements together - is not valid.

Post by blues Lyne
This is getting so ridiculous. We are talking about tea traditions not
setting spouses on fire.

Yes, this is ridiculous. You don't make the distinction between a plain
statement, a universal statement, statements about statements
(arguments), example illustrating the logic behind arguments, validity,
truth and soundness.

Post by blues Lyne
Is it part of the Chinese tea tradition to set anyone on fire?

It doesn't matter if it's is true or not. What matters is how this
statement is linked to others. Are those links based on sound reasoning?
That's the debate.

Post by blues Lyne
We are talking about tea, and the
outlandish examples the two of you are using have nothing to do with tea and
are getting so outrageous and silly, it's become a useless discussion.

No, we are not talking about tea. We are talking about the validity of
your arguments concerning tea.

Of course, those examples are outlandish statements. They are not meant
to be otherwise. Until your argument is proven valid, we don't care if
premises and conclusion are true or false, outlandish or not.

Why?

Because :

True premises do not guarantee validity.
A true conclusion does not guarantee validity.
True premises and a true conclusion together do not guarantee validity.
False premises do not guarantee invalidity.
A false conclusion does not guarantee invalidity.
False premises and a false conclusion together do not guarantee invalidity.

Therefore, nothing can be said about the truth of statements until we
have a solid, valid, logical argument.

Post by blues Lyne
I'll leave it this way. In my home we have the freedom to choose to drink
only one type of tea, or to drink many varieties.

We fully agree with you, and always did.

While you drink your cup of tea at home, take a look at
http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/main.html

Maybe this can give you back your smile.

[Chinasaur]

Post by Julie C.
Yes, this is ridiculous. You don't make the distinction between a plain
statement, a universal statement, statements about statements
(arguments), example illustrating the logic behind arguments, validity,
truth and soundness. It doesn't matter if it's is true or not. What
matters is how this statement is linked to others. Are those links based
on sound reasoning? That's the debate.

Still, when I see such a convoluted attempt to make a point, it strikes me
as doubtful that an honest effort is being made to focus on clear,
immediate arguments.

Post by Julie C.
False premises do not guarantee invalidity.
A false conclusion does not guarantee invalidity.

But these two do guarantee *irrelevance* unless the rhetoric is more
important to you than the subject of discussion. That seems like the real
question...

[Julie C.]

Post by Chinasaur
Still, when I see such a convoluted attempt to make a point, it strikes me
as doubtful that an honest effort is being made to focus on clear,
immediate arguments.

I made an honest effort to state my arguments in the clearer, immediate

Post by Chinasaur
The discussion started when Crymad told us it's a typical American
defect to try teas from other countries but yours. I objected and said
it's not a American defect, it's not a defect in the first place. Then
Micheal Plant told us he like what Crymad said because he prefer
specialization over poor knowledge of "every tea of the world". I told
him the discussion wasn't about the virtues of specialization, it's
about the mistake of thinking your ethnic origin dictates what you
should drink. Micheal then told me I was wrong because he likes his
opinion and he cherish traditions. I responded by telling him it's

not > a valid argument. HSH joked that Micheal is an American therefore he

Post by Chinasaur
doesn't have a tea tradition to follow. I made a joke also by asking
Micheal to be a real American and drink Coke instead of tea.
I don't think specialization and personal preferences are wrong. But I
think you should not become a slave of your ethnic background.
Discoveries are an essential part of living. Also, I think it's
not enough to like one's ideas to make them valid arguments.

After that Blues Lyne argued that Micheal's argument is valid because
his statements are true. She added her own true statements to Micheal's
as if truth and validity are the same thing. I told her it's not the
truth of her statements that bothers me, but how the argument is made.
HSH also gave some examples of true statement in invalid context. At
that time, it was already too late, Blues Lyne was already upset by
those two stubborn fools who weren't able to see how true her statements
are. "How silly of them!"

Post by Chinasaur
[...] the rhetoric is more important to you than the subject of
discussion. That seems like the real question...

I don't care for conclusions if they are not guaranteed by a sound
argument. So, yes, the way one support one's claims to truth is more
important to me than the actual subject of discussion.

[Space Cowboy]

I completely agree:

Signed
Mr. Spock

Post by Julie C.
I don't care for conclusions if they are not guaranteed by a sound
argument. So, yes, the way one support one's claims to truth is more
important to me than the actual subject of discussion.

[Space Cowboy]

I completely disagree:

Signed
Captain Kirk

Post by Julie C.
I don't care for conclusions if they are not guaranteed by a sound
argument. So, yes, the way one support one's claims to truth is more
important to me than the actual subject of discussion.

[blues Lyne]

Post by Julie C.

Post by blues Lyne
So heath risk are not a valid argument for not drinking something

Yes, this an extremely valid argument. Because this argument applies to
everybody, Chinese or not.

Post by blues Lyne
My point was, since the discussion is about tea, the pork
example wasn't relevant unless she was trying to say the tea tradition of a
certain culture poses a health risk.

We don't care about pork. We could have chosen anything else : Martians,
dogs, dolls, etc. It doesn't matter. They are just *examples* of
statements. We don't care about the truth of those statements because
what we are trying to show you is that your argument - how you link
statements together - is not valid.

Post by blues Lyne
This is getting so ridiculous. We are talking about tea traditions not
setting spouses on fire.

Yes, this is ridiculous. You don't make the distinction between a plain
statement, a universal statement, statements about statements
(arguments), example illustrating the logic behind arguments, validity,
truth and soundness.

Post by blues Lyne
Is it part of the Chinese tea tradition to set anyone on fire?

It doesn't matter if it's is true or not. What matters is how this
statement is linked to others. Are those links based on sound reasoning?
That's the debate.

Post by blues Lyne
We are talking about tea, and the
outlandish examples the two of you are using have nothing to do with tea and
are getting so outrageous and silly, it's become a useless discussion.

No, we are not talking about tea. We are talking about the validity of
your arguments concerning tea.
Of course, those examples are outlandish statements. They are not meant
to be otherwise. Until your argument is proven valid, we don't care if
premises and conclusion are true or false, outlandish or not.
Why?
True premises do not guarantee validity.
A true conclusion does not guarantee validity.
True premises and a true conclusion together do not guarantee validity.
False premises do not guarantee invalidity.
A false conclusion does not guarantee invalidity.
False premises and a false conclusion together do not guarantee invalidity.
Therefore, nothing can be said about the truth of statements until we
have a solid, valid, logical argument.

Post by blues Lyne
I'll leave it this way. In my home we have the freedom to choose to drink
only one type of tea, or to drink many varieties.

We fully agree with you, and always did.
While you drink your cup of tea at home, take a look at
http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/main.html
Maybe this can give you back your smile.

Damn, I said I was done and here a I am again. For one, I apologize, I
thought since we are on a news group called rec.food.drink.tea, and the
subject is "Tea, I don't understand ..." and the statement I was referring
too was "It's perfectly OK to drink only Martian "tea" for any reason at
all; especially, I think, if your Martian "tea" tradition has been rubbed
and polished by thousands of years of history. It's as OK to do this as it
is to explore as widely as you can range. ", that we were talking about tea.
Well, I was anyway, in addition to whether specialization was equally ok as
diversification. My mistake. =^) (OK I'm being a smart alec, but I truly
do apologize for missing the point)

I think there is a communication breakdown here. You said "My point was
"Don't drink only Martian tea because you happen to be Martian" I think
Michael took what you were saying to mean "being Martian isn't a valid
reason for only drinking Martian tea" and responded that he thought it was
ok to drink Martian tea for any reason at all. Being someone who generally
believes in personal freedom as long as it doesn't impose on someone else's
personal freedom, or cause someone else harm, I'd have to agree. However, I
think what you were really saying was you shouldn't assume you should only
drink Martian tea because you happen to be Martian. If I am correct here,
then I understood your statement in context, but for Michael it was "vague"
(see I did read a little on the website you suggested). My understanding
was probably helped by the posts that came after, and your interpretation of
what Michael said. Of course if I'm wrong and that is not what you meant,
then disregard all of this because the statement was "vague" to me also and
I have no idea what I'm talking about.

You also seemed to take exception to this portion of his statement:

"especially, I think, if your Martian "tea" tradition has been rubbed and
polished by thousands of years of history."

Looking this over, I can see where there could be some disagreement over
whether it is "especially" ok if the tradition is a rich ancient tradition,
as opposed to a fairly recent tradition, or even no tradition. However, to
be honest, you two didn't seem to be arguing over this question, but whether
it was "especially ok" for a person of a certain culture to drink the tea of
their culture or follow the tea traditions of their culture. You asked "Why
it's *especially* ok to drink Martian tea if you are Martian?" (which he
never said, if you re-read the above) To be fair Michael qualified his
statement by saying "I think" and stated the whole things was "my opinion".
Again, I don't know much about the proper way to argue, but my guess is that
facts need to be proven, but opinions don't. When you said "Don't drink
Martian tea because you happen to be Martian" you didn't qualify it as an
opinion, and I didn't see you put forward any logical argument as to why it
was true. I wonder if you deleted "Sorry. Wrong" from his post if you would
have had the same response.

If you look back to where I joined this conversation, you'll see I simply
objected to the conclusion on your and HSH part that if "It's as OK to do
this (drink Martian tea for any reason at all, especially if I'm Martian) as
it is to explore as widely as you can range." then I "must" eat pork if I'm
black, drink to excess if I'm Irish, only drink Coke if I'm American, it's
ok for an Indian to burn his wife if a German did it, etc. Aside from many
of these statements being distasteful stereotypes, to me at least, they
aren't a logical conclusion of the statement Michael made. I admit, I'm
ignorant of the finer points of argument, but where I come from to interpret
"it's as ok to do "A" as it is to do "B"" as meaning I have to, should, or
can only do "A" is not "solid, valid, or logical". But that is where you
took it by saying that if his statement was true, as an American, he could
only have things that were "traditionally" American. It seems to me to be
more logical, when applying his statement to an American to say he can eat,
drink etc. things from the American culture exclusively, especially since he
is part of that culture, or he can eat, drink etc. things from many
cultures. Both are ok things for him to do. I don't know how he should
have said it, but I understood what he meant, and that's communication.

To me there is also a big difference between putting leaves in water and
drinking the result and murder. I choose to judge them differently, as I'm
sure you do. I tend to not care much about how someone does the former, but
have some opinions on the latter. And as I said before to make assumptions
from a discussion on tea tradition, and apply them to a tradition of burning
your spouse, seems really strange. As to how to debate or argue, you'll
have to take that up with someone else. I'd be as useless in that as you
probably would in a discussion of the merits of a .022uF vs. a .047uF mid
cap in the tonestack of a Black Face Fender Amp. (I know, big assumption,
you could be an expert amp tech, if you are let me know what you think =^))

Again I apologize for not understanding what the conversation was about.
I'm quite often a doofuss, but usually a decent human being. I'm really
just a humble, lovable musician who recently decided to dig deeper into tea.
And since, you say "We fully agree with you, and always did." to the only
point I was trying to make, it would be silly for me to wade in any deeper.
I'm sure I didn't make a single proper argument here, but hopefully I've
communicated to you where I'm coming from. It's 1:53 AM, and I'm off to
bed. Good Night.

Blues

[Her Serene Highness]

Post by blues Lyne
Damn, I said I was done and here a I am again. For one, I apologize, I
thought since we are on a news group called rec.food.drink.tea, and the
subject is "Tea, I don't understand ..." and the statement I was referring
too was "It's perfectly OK to drink only Martian "tea" for any reason at
all; especially, I think, if your Martian "tea" tradition has been rubbed
and polished by thousands of years of history. It's as OK to do this as it
is to explore as widely as you can range. ", that we were talking about tea.
Well, I was anyway, in addition to whether specialization was equally ok as
diversification. My mistake. =^) (OK I'm being a smart alec, but I truly
do apologize for missing the point)

The word especially is where I'm getting hung up. I'm sorry, but many
traditions have been rubbed and polished by thousands of years of history.
Slavery is one. Infanticide of crippled children is another. While I
understand the purpose of each, I would not argue in favor of either.
English tea ways are not thousands of years old- they come from the 18th
century. If we drank tea exactly in the original way Lu Yu did, we would all
have to live near the Dragon Well. If we wanted to be totally traditional in
our Japanese tea drinking, we would have to build firepits is our houses and
drink teas according to the seasonal avaialability. If we did it the Indian
way, we would only be able to live in certain parts of India. If we did it
the morrocan way, we would spend hours making and drinking sweet mint tea-
and we would get very little work done, as we perceive work. There would be
no tea from Brazil or Madagascar- they don't have native tea traditions.
It is perfectly alright to drink all kinds of tea- if you like them. But
'especially' alright? Again, the question is, why? A kid in Tokyo or Hong
Kong drinking bubble tea is not following a tradition- except inasfar as
drinking a tasty drink is a tradition. That the bubble tea is made with
black or green leaves does not make drinking bubble tea 'especially' ok for
anyone- unless they like it. I doubt that anyone here except maybe one or
two people has ever drunk tea in the Chinese manner set out by Lu Yu- it's
too damn complicated and you need a lot of equipment.

By the way- I don't think you were a doofus. And I wasn't commenting on
what Michael said- I don't read his posts. I was commenting on the word
'especially'. Because of my background (I'm a social scientist) I get
bothered by those kinds of statements. One of the things I like about the
modern world is that I can have wagashi made from hundred year old molds
with my green tea ice cream. Not only that, I can have both while talking
online with someone in Japan who can teach me about the ins and outs of
blues music- and none of this is especially odd anymore. To some extent we
have reached an era where many of us can mix and match ethnicities by deep
exposure to other cultures, and know more about them from reading or travel
than the people who live there and take it for granted. A quick visit to
Colonial Williamsburg, where the first-time in the US European visitors
usually know more about early American history than do the Americans- would
prove this point nicely

[blues Lyne]

Post by Her Serene Highness

Post by blues Lyne
Damn, I said I was done and here a I am again. For one, I apologize, I
thought since we are on a news group called rec.food.drink.tea, and the
subject is "Tea, I don't understand ..." and the statement I was referring
too was "It's perfectly OK to drink only Martian "tea" for any reason at
all; especially, I think, if your Martian "tea" tradition has been rubbed
and polished by thousands of years of history. It's as OK to do this as it
is to explore as widely as you can range. ", that we were talking about

tea.

Post by blues Lyne
Well, I was anyway, in addition to whether specialization was equally ok

as

Post by blues Lyne
diversification. My mistake. =^) (OK I'm being a smart alec, but I truly
do apologize for missing the point)

The word especially is where I'm getting hung up. I'm sorry, but many
traditions have been rubbed and polished by thousands of years of history.
Slavery is one. Infanticide of crippled children is another. While I
understand the purpose of each, I would not argue in favor of either.
English tea ways are not thousands of years old- they come from the 18th
century. If we drank tea exactly in the original way Lu Yu did, we would all
have to live near the Dragon Well. If we wanted to be totally traditional in
our Japanese tea drinking, we would have to build firepits is our houses and
drink teas according to the seasonal avaialability. If we did it the Indian
way, we would only be able to live in certain parts of India. If we did it
the morrocan way, we would spend hours making and drinking sweet mint tea-
and we would get very little work done, as we perceive work. There would be
no tea from Brazil or Madagascar- they don't have native tea traditions.
It is perfectly alright to drink all kinds of tea- if you like them. But
'especially' alright? Again, the question is, why? A kid in Tokyo or Hong
Kong drinking bubble tea is not following a tradition- except inasfar as
drinking a tasty drink is a tradition. That the bubble tea is made with
black or green leaves does not make drinking bubble tea 'especially' ok for
anyone- unless they like it. I doubt that anyone here except maybe one or
two people has ever drunk tea in the Chinese manner set out by Lu Yu- it's
too damn complicated and you need a lot of equipment.
By the way- I don't think you were a doofus. And I wasn't commenting on
what Michael said- I don't read his posts. I was commenting on the word
'especially'. Because of my background (I'm a social scientist) I get
bothered by those kinds of statements. One of the things I like about the
modern world is that I can have wagashi made from hundred year old molds
with my green tea ice cream. Not only that, I can have both while talking
online with someone in Japan who can teach me about the ins and outs of
blues music- and none of this is especially odd anymore. To some extent we
have reached an era where many of us can mix and match ethnicities by deep
exposure to other cultures, and know more about them from reading or travel
than the people who live there and take it for granted. A quick visit to
Colonial Williamsburg, where the first-time in the US European visitors
usually know more about early American history than do the Americans- would
prove this point nicely

Slavery is one. Infanticide of crippled children is another. While I

Post by Her Serene Highness
understand the purpose of each, I would not argue in favor of either.

Obviously, and he wouldn't have stated (at least I hope) that it's ok for
any body to kill crippled children for any reason, especially if the have a
tradition that's been... However, we are talking about tea and exploring
the depth of one tradition as opposed to sampling as much as possible. I
took him to mean that it was ok to do the former, especially when there is
great depth and refinement in the tradition to explore. I think to assume
that if he believes that, then he believes any tradition with a rich history
is ok, is really stretching things. It's like assuming if I say green tea
is best brewed at cooler water temperatures, then I must believe all tea is
best brewed that way. While I think it is fine for someone to only drink
bubble tea, there is probably not a lot of depth to the tradition, if there
is in fact a tradition at all. At least not as much as a tea tradition that
has been refined over thousands of years. When Lu Yu first brewed his tea
there was no depth or refinement of tradition, because there was no
tradition. The reason we don't do it the same now is because it has been
rubbed and polished by thousands of years of history.

America is somewhat unique in that we, as a nation haven't been around long
enough to have traditions that old. And those who have lived on this land
long enough to have that kind of tradition have, for the most part, been
cast aside and forgotten. I can only trace my family back a couple of
hundred years, and then I have to cross over to England and Ireland. We
also are a nation made up of many ethnic groups from many cultures, with a
relatively short history here, so it's easy to trace where these traditions
came from and thus they don't seem so uniquely American. It is my
understanding that tea came to Japan from China, but because it has been in
Japan for so long, it's no longer looked at as a Chinese tradition practiced
in Japan, but has become a Japanese tradition. Because of the above, I
wouldn't be surprised if Americans are more prone to experiment with the
foods and beverages of other cultures. Not that other cultures don't like
to experiment, but that we have no tradition to cling too, and a lot of
exposure to other cultures.

These just my opinions and musings, and the way I interpreted what was said.
And that's all I can really offer.

Blues

[Her Serene Highness]

It is not 'especially good' for me a black person to follow black
'traditions'. Eating fatty ham hocks is bad for me.
He didn't say good, or should or have to, he said it was especially ok.

The

American Heritage Dictionary defines especially as "To an extent or degree
deserving of special emphasis; particularly." If it is your culture, why
isn't it particularly ok for you to follow it's traditions?

Therein lies the rub. Why is it not 'particularly ok'?

Because my family has a history of high blood pressure. It is very un-ok.
Many East Coast Native Americans have a tradition of drinking too much. Is
it 'particularly ok' for Indians to drink, then?
Then- and you'll probably think I'm splitting hairs here- what if it's not
part of my traditions. One 'black tradition' (general) is inviting the
minister over to dinner. I'm Catholic- and inviting the priest over is so
not in my personal family's tradition. Spirituals are considered
traditional, so it should be 'particularly ok' for me to sing them- except
that they don't fit with my religious beliefs at all. They fit with my
father's- but he can't carry a tune in a washbowl.
Another tradition among black people is practicing hoodoo, or putting
'roots' on people. Should I leave dead chickens in front of the doors of my
enemies, or carry High John the Conqueror in my pocket to keep hants away?
Actually, that's not in my family either- we're not from the deep South.
Not only that, but I'm a social scientist and believe in logic, for the most
part.

I have a friend who is West Indian- Haitian to be exact. she's a doctor. Is
it especially ok for her to call on loas to help her patients instead of
giving them chemotherapy? Would it be especially ok if she lobbied the AMA
to let her do this because of her cultural heritage? I suppose so- but even
her parents, who are 'race people' to the core, would consider that to be
silly. In fact, they think the traditional practice of voudou has kept
Haitians in the Dark Ages and allowed them to be manipulated and tortured by
two Presidents-for-Life. My Native friends think the tradition of drinking
oneself blind has kept Native Americans from being a larger part of American
society, even if some non-Native people think it's ok to spend a weekend
that way. And many of my West African friends are both amused ad appalled
that there are Americans who get genital piercings- many of them came here
to escape the especially ok tradition of cutting off the vaginal lips of a
teenage girl and removing her clitoris. Meanwhile, removing labial tissue
has become popular among American porn stars and supposedly among many
legitimate actresses- and some plastic surgeons are actually pushing it as a
way of beautifying women.

[Her Serene Highness]

Another comment. Gospel was an invention of the 20th century- it derives in
part from lining and spiritual singing (which is not the same as gospel- I
learned this fairly recently). Blues in its earliest from arose in the late
1890s, along with western music. The two cross-pollinated each other.
I agree. You can sing the blues and not be black, eat ham hocks and not be
a Southerner. But would it be especially ok for me as a sometime college
professor who grew up in New York to claim it was 'especially ok' for me to
eat girts or sing the blues, because of a quirk of skin color, that it was
ok for you to do both, but less ok than it was for me? 'Especially ok'
implies a hierarchy of oks. I don't think there is one. According to that
logic, it's especially ok for Tony Blair to change his mind and send troops
tin to kill every Catholic Irishman they can find- since that seems to be a
grand English tradition among prime ministers. And that would make it
especially ok for my parents to decide that we're converting back to Islam
and that I have to wear a burqa, or at least obey my father's every word,
since Islam was the main relgious tradition in West Africa up to the period
of the Middle Passage, and even until recently. Even in many non-Moslem
families, I would be expected as now unmarried woman, to obey my father.
A friend told me about a version of this the other day. He was on the
subway and saw an interracial couple. The woman was black and the man was
white. Across from them stood a black man, who glared at them. As he got
off the train, he spit at the black woman- in his eyes she was a race
traitor. Most people who have categories of especially ok also have
categories of especially not ok. Since many black men believe it's
especially not-ok for black women to date white men because it goes against
tradition, should they spit at them? since it was a tradition for a good
150 years for black slve women to be raped by white men, should we treat
that form of rape as especially ok, seeing how it is based on tradition? How
about the wealthy enslaving the poor? Especially ok, or merely ok?
Some traditions are stupid.

It is not 'especially good' for me a black person to follow black
'traditions'. Eating fatty ham hocks is bad for me.
He didn't say good, or should or have to, he said it was especially ok.

The

American Heritage Dictionary defines especially as "To an extent or degree
deserving of special emphasis; particularly." If it is your culture, why
isn't it particularly ok for you to follow it's traditions? They are
probably more meaningful to you, since you understand the culture. We are
talking about tea. If you find that Chinese tea as opposed to Japanese

tea

causes health risks then you have a valid argument for the Chinese

drinking

Japanese tea. But if it is ok for someone from another culture to follow
the traditions of Chinese tea, it must be especially ok for those who came
up with the tradition in the first place to do the same. I don't think

ham

hock are the center piece of black culture anyway. It's more of a poor
southern tradition, black or white. They were cheap, like ribs and

brisket

used to be. I think there are quite a few black people who feel cheated
because their culture and traditions were taken away when they were

brought

to this country. I'm not sure they were thrilled to be exposed to the
various European cultures of the day.
"Most of the 'American' diet has developed since heavy immigration after
1880, and is therefore fairly new-fangled."
Just how old do you think blues and gospel music are? How many hundreds

of

years have black people been eating BBQ ribs and ham hocks? Basketball?
It's funny, I'm a white Irish American and I play and sing the blues quite
well, I also love BBQ and other southern cooking, even though I've lived

in

the north most of my life and am now in Southern California. Do you

somehow

think it is more ok for me to be into these things than for a black person
from the south? If you do that's fine, you are entitled to that opinion.

I

just don't agree with it. I write music. It's ok for someone else to

sing

or play my songs, but it's especially ok for me. I came up with them,

they

most likely have a deeper meaning to me. And I would say it is equally ok
for me to only play my songs as it is for me to play as wide a variety of
songs from around the world.
From "In other words, why is it especially good?" on down the rest of your
message is outrageous. Those things were never said or implied. And

there

is a great difference between the stereotypes about a ethic group or

nation

and their traditions. Once again you are trying change the statement from
it's as ok to only experience the tea culture of your ethnicity or
nationality as it is to try a wide variety, to you should or have to stick
with your tea traditions and can't try any others. That's not what was

said.

Blues

Post by Her Serene Highness

Post by Julie C.

....you'll see he is saying both approaches are equally valid.

Yes, I know.(*)
I'm not good at English. Surely, I didn't make myself understood. So I
The discussion started when Crymad told us it's a typical American
defect to try teas from other countries but yours. I objected and said
it's not a American defect, it's not a defect in the first place. Then
Micheal Plant told us he like what Crymad said because he prefer
specialization over poor knowledge of "every tea of the world". I told
him the discussion wasn't about the virtues of specialization, it's
about the mistake of thinking your ethnic origin dictates what you
should drink. Micheal then told me I was wrong because he likes his
opinion and he cherish traditions. I responded by telling him it's not a
valid argument. HSH joked that Micheal is an American therefore he
doesn't have a tea tradition to follow. I made a joke also by asking
Micheal to be a real American and drink Coke instead of tea.
I don't think specialization and personal preferences are wrong. But I
think you should not become a slave of your ethnic background.
Discoveries are an essential part of living. Also, I don't think it's
not enough to like one's own ideas to make them valid arguments.
--
(*)But it's my opinion he's wrong even if I agree with some of what he's
saying :P

And quite frankly- America doesn't produce tea in large enough or good
enough quantities to validate such statements. Lipton's is not grown in
America. Neither is Red Rose.
It is not 'especially good' for me a a black person to follow black
'traditions'. Eating fatty ham hocks is bad for me. I was raised Catholic
and now follow Judiasm and Buddhism- I never grew up with gospel, which is
seen as 'traditional' (it's not in my family). I'm not tall enough to play
basketball. I don't make very good pancakes. I prefer white potatoes to
rice. I can't play blues to save my life, and I sing baroque music. I also
love Japanese cuisine- if I never had another pork rib again, I'd be fine.
In other words, why is it especially good? Should all Irish people drink
excessively, join the IRA and attend church regularly? Should all Jews

leave

Post by Her Serene Highness
work early on Friday and never eat ham sandwiches or have food in the

houses

Post by Her Serene Highness
of gentiles? Should mixed- ethnicity couples not eat each other's cooking?
Should the Japanese stop drinking bubble tea, give up curry and spaghetti,
and throw away all their Western clothes? Should the Scots paint

themselves

Post by Her Serene Highness
blue and wear kilts to work? WHY? Because Michael thinks so? Then as

Julie

Post by Her Serene Highness
suggested, he should be directed to the soda aisle. Not only that, but he
needs to give up his gaiwans and teapots on the way there- because as

far

as

Post by Her Serene Highness
he's told us and as far as people on the list who have met him know,

Michael

Post by Her Serene Highness
is an American of European descent. From now on he should only drink
lemonade, watered-down beer, and Dr. Pepper. And quite frankly, I don't

know

Post by Her Serene Highness
if he should be allowed the lemonade or watered-down beer. Benjamin

Franklin

Post by Her Serene Highness
and his associates drank warm British-style beer, and lemons are not
indigenous to North America. What Michael will eat while on his

traditional

Post by Her Serene Highness
kick, I don't know. Pizza is straight out, and so are hot dogs. Sushi is

out

Post by Her Serene Highness
of the question. I think Michael can have steak, cornmeal mush with honey
and butter, milk, and perhaps some carrots and peas. Most of the

'American'

Post by Her Serene Highness
diet has developed since heavy immigration after 1880, and is therefore
fairly new-fangled. Sorry but no mac and cheese, at least not in its

current

Post by Her Serene Highness
tasty form.

[WNW]

Post by Julie C.

Post by Michael Plant
But, there is the larger issue of trying every tea in the world vs becoming
intimate with a small number, if you will.

This is not an issue. You can try every tea in the world and still be
intimate with a small number. You can drink only a few and still know
next to nothing about tea. You can sample every tea in the world without
gaining an understanding of tea. Etc.
My point wasn't about choosing between "trying every tea in the world"
or "trully knowing only a few".
My point was "Don't drink only Martian tea because you happen to be Martian"

Sorry. Wrong. It's perfectly OK to drink only Martian tea for any reason

at

all; especially, I think, if your Martian tea tradition has been rubbed

and

polished by thousands of years of history. It's as OK to do this as it

is to

explore as widely as you can range. The former is getting bad press.

Truly.

I agree. It seems the goal of cultural pluralism often isn't so much
reverence for heritage as it is adding one more dish to the
international buffet line. Pile your plates high! And don't worry
about the clean-up, we have courteous natives in national costumes for
that.
One other aspect of the far-and-wide style of cultural discovery are the
mutant, melting-pot hybrids that get spawned from confused minds of free
spirits. Soy-milk based green tea chai with sugar and spice and
everything nice. More dreadful examples abound in "fusion cooking", an
oftentimes haphazard approach to food that now seems to be America's
national cuisine.
--crymad

I'll have to agree on that one point that the so-called "fusion cuisine" is
often just atrocious. Being adventurous to a point is ok, but there are
limits beyond which things just become ridiculous.

N.

[WNW]

Post by crymad

Post by WNW

Post by crymad
Which begs the question: Why my interest in finding Japanese-sytle
green teas from China when those from Japan already fit the bill? I
should be happy in my complacency.
--crymad

Don't get me wrong -- some of the Chinese greens are quite nice; a good
Dragonwell can be very enjoyable. Even some of the Vietnamese greens aren't
bad. But if you like the uniqueness of the Japanese greens, from what I've
tasted so far, it's not going to be easy to find a very similar tea from
China.

Then so be it. Most all tea-loving Japanese spend their entire lives
happily drinking tea from their homeland without ever feeling the need
to investigate the offerings of their neighbors. The Chinese are
probably the same way. This urge to "broaden one's horizons" seems an
American affliction. Must we as tea drinkers insist on boundless
variety, 31-derful flavors to choose from?
--crymad

Over the past few years, the Japanese greens have become my true favorites.
I still buy the occasional Chinese green.

N.

[Julie C.]

Post by crymad
This urge to "broaden one's horizons" seems an
American affliction.

This is one of the saddest thing I ever read. I hope you don't really
mean it. Because, what you call an affliction, this urge to broaden
one's horizons, is the main characterisc of the inquiring mind. It has
nothing to do with Americans in particular. It's very human. It's the
willingness to undertake new ventures and it's called curiosity,
inquisitiveness, mental acquisitiveness, enterprise, initiative, an open
mind, a free spirit. All signs of the awaken mind. Or in other words,
intelligence.

If you forbidden yourself to be amazed by all the possibilities waiting
to be discovered, then, in my sense, you are missing the point of
living. Life is too vast, diverse, and short to be wasted on an ethnic
origin. We don't choose to be born Japanese, American, Caucasian, Asian,
or from whatever other origin. So, why add to this by being
segregationist with yourself?

Don't be a vegetable. Explore. Be free.

--

By the way, since my short stay in Japan I like to drink a Japanese
green tea, now and then, just to remind me of this wonderfull country
and to break the monotony. I never got used to Chinese tea. In my
opinion, Japanese teas are far more purer ans tastier.

[crymad]

Post by Julie C.

Post by crymad
This urge to "broaden one's horizons" seems an
American affliction.

This is one of the saddest thing I ever read. I hope you don't really
mean it. Because, what you call an affliction, this urge to broaden
one's horizons, is the main characterisc of the inquiring mind. It has
nothing to do with Americans in particular. It's very human. It's the
willingness to undertake new ventures and it's called curiosity,
inquisitiveness, mental acquisitiveness, enterprise, initiative, an open
mind, a free spirit. All signs of the awaken mind. Or in other words,
intelligence.
If you forbidden yourself to be amazed by all the possibilities waiting
to be discovered, then, in my sense, you are missing the point of
living. Life is too vast, diverse, and short to be wasted on an ethnic
origin. We don't choose to be born Japanese, American, Caucasian, Asian,
or from whatever other origin. So, why add to this by being
segregationist with yourself?
Don't be a vegetable. Explore. Be free.

Freedom: It's what makes America great. Frankly, though, this constant
pursuit of happiness may be fun in a schoolgirl-in-the-mall kind of way
-- and certainly keeps the engines of commerce running -- but it's not
really conducive to a tranquility of mind. Deep understanding, the true
goal of the curiosity you praise, comes from a monogamous commitment.
I'm as much a dilettante as the next liberal-arts educated guy. But
flitting from one enthusiasm to the next, forever in search of the new
and different, is the mark of a sensation whore.

--crymad

[Julie C.]

Post by crymad
Freedom: It's what makes America great.

Maybe in the eyes of Americans. It's more right to say United States of
America are powerfull. And the Bush administration is not shy to use
this power. In recent history, the US government (not the US citizens)
showed it only cares to impose whatever liberties it takes on the rest
of the world. But this has nothing to do with you, me or tea. So I leave
it here.

Post by crymad
Frankly, though, this constant
pursuit of happiness may be fun in a schoolgirl-in-the-mall kind of way
-- and certainly keeps the engines of commerce running -- but it's not
really conducive to a tranquility of mind.

I agree absolutely. Exploring and learning can, and usually is,
painfull. This has nothing to do with the pursuit of happiness. Life is
not stroll in the mall.

Post by crymad
Deep understanding, the true
goal of the curiosity you praise, comes from a monogamous commitment.
I'm as much a dilettante as the next liberal-arts educated guy. But
flitting from one enthusiasm to the next, forever in search of the new
and different, is the mark of a sensation whore.

For a moment, I tought you were trying to link the practice or condition
of having a single sexual partner with the deep understanding of tea.
(#^_^#)

Yes, deep understanding comes with assiduous study, with the disciplin
of not getting into distractions. Remember, tought, you can completely
understand a subject only if you study all aspects of it. You really
know your subject of study when you're able to remove yourself from it
and look at it from outside.

Post by crymad
... is the mark of a sensation whore.

You are not afraid of using strong words because you dissociate your
sense of being from them. I like this a lot. Thank you for your
articulate answer. It's always a pleasure to chat with somebody who
knows the difference between his beliefs/opinions/ideas/words and himself.

Julie C.

[Julie C.]

Post by crymad
Freedom: It's what makes America great.

Maybe in the eyes of Americans. It's more right to say United States of
America are powerfull. And the Bush administration is not shy to use
this power. In recent history, the US government (not the US citizens)
showed it only cares to impose whatever liberties it takes on the rest
of the world. But this has nothing to do with you, me or tea. So I leave
it here.

Post by crymad
Frankly, though, this constant
pursuit of happiness may be fun in a schoolgirl-in-the-mall kind of way
-- and certainly keeps the engines of commerce running -- but it's not
really conducive to a tranquility of mind.

I agree absolutely. Exploring and learning can, and usually is,
painfull. This has nothing to do with the pursuit of happiness. Life is
not stroll in the mall.

Post by crymad
Deep understanding, the true
goal of the curiosity you praise, comes from a monogamous commitment.

I'm as much a dilettante as the next liberal-arts educated guy. But

Post by crymad
flitting from one enthusiasm to the next, forever in search of the new
and different, is the mark of a sensation whore.

For a moment, I tought you were trying to link the practice or condition
of having a single sexual partner with the deep understanding of tea.
(#^_^#)

Yes, deep understanding comes with assiduous study, with the disciplin
of not getting into distractions. Remember, tought, you can completely
understand a subject only if you study all aspects of it. You really
know your subject of study when you're able to remove yourself from it
and look at it from outside.

Post by crymad
... is the mark of a sensation whore.

You are not afraid of using strong words because you dissociate your
sense of being from them. I like this a lot. Thank you for your
articulate answer. It's always a pleasure to chat with somebody who
knows the difference between his beliefs/opinions/ideas/words and himself.

Julie C.

[Her Serene Highness]

Post by Julie C.

Post by crymad
... is the mark of a sensation whore.

You are not afraid of using strong words because you dissociate your
sense of being from them. I like this a lot. Thank you for your
articulate answer. It's always a pleasure to chat with somebody who
knows the difference between his beliefs/opinions/ideas/words and himself.
Julie C.

But Julie- please remember that you're talking to the two biggest and most
arrogant loons on the board.

[Her Serene Highness]

Luckily, I haven't read it- since I have him killfiled. I was only able to
read what he wrote when he was quoted in another post.

From what I can tell, though, Crymad proved that I was right in calling him
an arrogant loon- in the bad sense. I think SC is loony too- and sometimes
brilliant. Lunacy is not necessarily a bad thing.

As for genders- my husband was male. Not that it makes a difference, since
a female ex-lover of mine is very ill right now. However, as nasty and
acid-tonuged as I have ever been in anyone's mind, I have never wished the
ultimate horror on anyone- to be left to mourn the person they love the
most. I would indeed grieve if anything ever happened to crymad's wife,
even though I am not heterosexual, because to lose one's loving spouse is a
thing that is beyond any pain known to most humans, with the exception of
putting a child in the grave. However, having gone through that, I now know
I could survive almost anything. It remains to be seen how crymad will react
if this fate befalls him. I sincerely hope that he has a great deal more
support than most people get, because it is in that moment that all sexual
orientational differences fade into nothingness.

Post by Space Cowboy

This is a low blow. The pain of losing someone you love is pain, no

matter

what combination of genders, etc. is involved.

I agree. Whatever respect I may have had for his knowlege of tea has been
diminished by his lack of respect for his fellow members of the human

race.

Post by Space Cowboy
How sad that, every day, I see the chasm between the words "human" and
"humane" grow. In some individuals, never the twain shall meet.
I rarely jump into what may become a flame war, but his links and comments
were uncalled for...and just plain cruel.
--
Tee
http://www.geocities.com/tee_king

[c]

Post by Her Serene Highness
Luckily, I haven't read it- since I have him killfiled.

Perhaps this will get through to you then. Allow me to repeat myself:

-----------------------------------

Post by Her Serene Highness
But Julie- please remember that you're talking to the two biggest and most
arrogant loons on the board.

*sigh* Our middle-aged New York SM girl just loves the punishment, I
guess...

You want loony? Get a load of this:

http://tinyurl.com/i5ff

A few years later, and it still appears she has "a number of issues to
work out":

http://tinyurl.com/i5ds
------------------------------------

Post by Her Serene Highness
From what I can tell, though, Crymad proved that I was right in calling him
an arrogant loon- in the bad sense.

And you are an insufferable twit. Yes, in the bad sense.

And as for sheer looniess, you take the cake. You write:

"I used to complain to my shrink that my husband didn't beat me
enough. I was happy when recently I argued with the boyfrined, and he
threatened to punish me if I used that tone again."

http://tinyurl.com/i6bx

Post by Her Serene Highness
As for genders- my husband was male. Not that it makes a difference, since
a female ex-lover of mine is very ill right now.

Correction: Common law husband. You were never married. Not that it
makes a difference. We can all be husbands, man or woman, just by
wanting to! You write:

"Now I just want the house, the husband (can we both be husbands
sometimes? Yes? Oh, goody- and he can be a wife* too, if he wants-
someone has to clean my office and keep my pearl necklaces in order,
especially while I'm cleaning his), and the nice collection of deadly
non-fantasy throwing knives, the cage that hangs from the ceiling, the
medical room with the autopsy and ob-gyn tables, and the really large
kitchen. And maybe one girl and one boy of any sex, so when the husband
gets bored torturing me, we can torture them, and maybe stake them out
on the back lawn during the summer so the ants can eat honey from their
genitals when they are not locked into chastity belts."

http://tinyurl.com/i6bo

Post by Her Serene Highness
However, as nasty and
acid-tonuged as I have ever been in anyone's mind, I have never wished the
ultimate horror on anyone- to be left to mourn the person they love the
most. I would indeed grieve if anything ever happened to crymad's wife,
even though I am not heterosexual, because to lose one's loving spouse is a
thing that is beyond any pain known to most humans, with the exception of
putting a child in the grave. However, having gone through that, I now know
I could survive almost anything. It remains to be seen how crymad will react
if this fate befalls him.

Certainly with more grace than you. You wrote, one year after your
lover's passing:

"I'm wondering if there's ayone on the list interested in vampirism and
relatively mild blood sports. Particularly people in the NY/Tristate
area...

I'm taking about biting and nibbling without breaking the skin, possibly
while wearing fangs(neck and other places), the drawing of blood with
needles or small incisions, pricking with knife points, and yes,
drinking the stuff. Maybe even signal whipping to blood. Why, are you
offering to take part in an experiment?

<Flirt, Flirt, Flirt>"

http://tinyurl.com/i6c8

[Debbie Deutsch]

You have gone way too far.

HSH's sexuality has nothing to do with any on=topic discussion here.
Ridiculing someone based on their sexuality is completely tasteless.

Respect for one's fellow human being aside (because some will snicker at
that notion even though I do not), consider what you are doing. Assuming
you or even most people find someone else's practices tasteless, how can it
be appropriate to bring them up here?

Even as someone whose life is nothing like's HSH's, I get very concerned
when someone goes off in a direction such as you have:

1. It is wrong to intentionally hurt someone else. Period. No exceptions.

2. So you don't like an aspect someone else's personal life? Fine. Don't
engage in it; stay away from the topic. Nobody is forcing you to get
involved. One doesn't have to look too far in the past to see what can
happen when people think it is okay to deride/denegrate a particular group
of people based on some characteristic that the general public thinks is
odd.

Bottom line: Can it.

Debbie

[Tee]

Post by Debbie Deutsch
You have gone way too far.

8<---8<---8<---Eloquently written statements snipped--->8--->8--->8

Post by Debbie Deutsch
1. It is wrong to intentionally hurt someone else. Period. No exceptions.
2. So you don't like an aspect someone else's personal life? Fine. Don't
engage in it; stay away from the topic. Nobody is forcing you to get
involved. One doesn't have to look too far in the past to see what can
happen when people think it is okay to deride/denegrate a particular group
of people based on some characteristic that the general public thinks is
odd.
Bottom line: Can it.
Debbie

I couldn't have said it better myself, and now I don't have to. crymad, I
implore you...please remove your hateful vendetta from a place where it's
neither appropriate nor welcome. I won't contribute to this thread any
further, other than to tell HSH that she deserves better than this. I don't
understand her lifestyle, but it's certainly not my place to judge and
ridicule her. HSH, I'm sorry for the losses you've suffered.

Okay, I'm done.
--
Tee
http://www.geocities.com/tee_king

[crymad]

Post by Debbie Deutsch
You have gone way too far.
HSH's sexuality has nothing to do with any on=topic discussion here.

And it never would have become a topic had she not been the one to
broach it. This very early post of hers in this group practically
suffocated us with her sexuality and sparked the suspicion that we were
dealing with a twit:

"To taste tea from one's lover's lips, or even from his mouth...
Japanese tea, served with wagashi (tea sweets) while clad in silk and
listening to soft music brings all manner of things to mind. And then,
looking through books that feature sensuous photographs of tea while
feeding and being fed by a lover while curled up in bed...
On an evening like this- very rainy in my part of the coutry- curling up
with a pot of sencha warms me, and makes me think of love and even sex.
I can imagine my fantasy lover's breath in the steam of the tea, and
imagine him touching the water in the cup and then trailing his warm wet
fingers over my skin."

http://tinyurl.com/ibwi

Post by Debbie Deutsch
Ridiculing someone based on their sexuality is completely tasteless.

When someone's mid-life sexuality is centered on silly dungeons and
dragons with dildoes and dicks fantasy role playing, it's hard to stifle
a laugh. To be clear, though, I'm ridiculing HSH based on her
character. Unfortunately, HSH's identification with her sexuality is
almost total.

--crymad

[Chandler]

Post by Debbie Deutsch
1. It is wrong to intentionally hurt someone else. Period. No exceptions.

This is not a comment on HSH's preferences?

[Debbie Deutsch]

Post by Chandler

Post by Debbie Deutsch
1. It is wrong to intentionally hurt someone else. Period. No exceptions.

This is not a comment on HSH's preferences?

I do not comment on anyone's sexual preferences.

If my meaning wasn't clear, I will restate it. Hate speech is wrong.

Whatever HSH's sexual preferences may be, and however Crymad may feel about
them, Crymad is completely off base in his ridicule of HSH here.

Debbie

[Her Serene Highness]

Post by Debbie Deutsch

Post by Chandler

Post by Debbie Deutsch
1. It is wrong to intentionally hurt someone else. Period. No exceptions.

This is not a comment on HSH's preferences?

I do not comment on anyone's sexual preferences.
If my meaning wasn't clear, I will restate it. Hate speech is wrong.
Whatever HSH's sexual preferences may be, and however Crymad may feel about
them, Crymad is completely off base in his ridicule of HSH here.
Debbie

But I will comment.
I think it's very good to have sexual preferences- even if that preference
is, 'no thank you'. It's when people don't respect your right to say 'no
thank you' that you have a problem. That's the basis of laws delineating
rape, molestation, and stalking. If a person says 'thank you very much',
and that person is capable of their words being taken seriously (think of
that as the 'no animals, children and severely retarded' rule), I think that
is a valid position, too- since saying 'thank you' does not mean the other
person will say 'thank you', too. Expressing a preference is not the same as
acting on it- and some things are not preferences. They are orientations.
As long as I do not show up at crymad's house dressed in a latex cat suit
with vampire fangs in my mouth, forcing my way in to do the dirty deed with
crymad and/or his wife before poking each of them with a pointy stick (gosh-
what a horrifyingly silly image!), I'm not infringing on crymad's right to
say 'no thank you'. Quite frankly, the thought of having sex with a real or
virtual crymad and having to listen to his opinions on travel and world
culture is enough to make me say 'no thank you' without ever seeing him or
his wife- but that's beside the point. Therefore we can assume he's safe,
since my current squeeze is not a cranky male tea-drinking bigot. I tend to
have much different 'preferences', and I currently thank the Almighty every
day for that. But then, I thank the Lord for not making me a fan of Anna
Nicole Smith, an avid reader of the National Enquirer, a bungee-jumping
fiend, or any of the other things that I'm not. I prefer being a quiet
tea-drinking bisexual perv with a allergic reaction to sunlight, thank you
very much. Imagine if I had some really bizarre preferences and
orientations- I'd be too embarrassed to even be on this group!

[c]

Post by Her Serene Highness
Quite frankly, the thought of having sex with a real or
virtual crymad and having to listen to his opinions on travel and world
culture is enough to make me say 'no thank you' without ever seeing him or
his wife- but that's beside the point.

While it may mirror those silly lick-my-boot basement rec-room
performances that get you so hot, by no means misconstrue my dealing out
humiliation on you as flirting. I really think you're an idiot.

[Paul Guertin]

Deep understanding, the true goal of the curiosity you praise,
comes from a monogamous commitment. [...]
flitting from one enthusiasm to the next, forever in search of
the new and different, is the mark of a sensation whore.

To know something about everything and to know everything about
something are not contradictory goals. Everyone should try and
find the balance that best suits him or her, and curiosity can
broaden knowledge as much as deepen it.

Paul Guertin
***@sff.net

[Julie C.]

Liberal poppycock. You come as soon as you spend your traveler's checks you
go. The only language you learn is one of currency, ordering and greeting.
Ethnicity is nothing more than a diversion for people on bus tours. The
only horizons are Coke bottles in ethnic languages. I think travel is
better than no travel but in the end you show the videotapes of tourist
traps to your friends. Let me summarize my international travels for you
the only ethnicity you encounter are the people who want to sell you
something. You hit the tourist spots and go home. That's the reason we are
the ugly Americans.

It's funny. You think somehow I've ever own traveler's checks, I've gone
on bus tours, I drink Coke, I travel to buy souvenirs, I videotape my
trips, I like tourist's spots, I don't make any efforts to learn the
local language and culture, and, the funniest of all, you think I'm an
American and this has something to do with opening yourself to the world.

The specific reason I cut back on international travel
is because I can go to Las Vegas and dine in the best international
restaurants in the world.

You are the first American I've heard trying to justify his fear of
traveling abroad by making himself believe Las Vegas is good substitute
for the real world.

By the way, eating is not traveling.

[Space Cowboy]

If you agree the world cultures have been reduced to a shopping mall then LV
is as good as any to visit for shopping and dining. You can rightfully
complain about our abuse of power and it will come back to haunt us but I
can also claim beyond the rhetoric we are truly the world's melting pot.
Beyond the tourist sites I don't have to go to Vietnam Russia or Middle East
to learn from those cultures locally. If I wasn't way past my learning
curve I'd take more advantage of the language exposure. One of the
strangest cultural milieu experiences in town is a library used by Russian
immigrants to learn English. The local cultures offer a much more low key
exposure than some geographical country. If you need an interpreter you're
a tourist. Anyway you can learn more from the Travel Channel in 24 hours
than around the world in 80 days. Travel has nothing to do with cultural
understanding.

Jim

Post by Julie C.
You are the first American I've heard trying to justify his fear of
traveling abroad by making himself believe Las Vegas is good substitute
for the real world.
By the way, eating is not traveling.

[Tee]

Travel has nothing to do with cultural understanding.
Jim

Travel doesn't, but the destination and an open mind do.
--
Tee
http://www.geocities.com/tee_king

[WNW]

Maybe not the way YOU travel. :-)

Tourism is sightseeing and shopping. I'm watching this fluff piece on an
American photographer living in Paris who has been photographing the

French

for 50 years. In the end he is asked if he is French and he says nope New
Yorker thru and thru. I'm one of those who thinks Home Sapiens Sapiens
triumphed through hardwired cultural necessity versus other Homo species

who

learned it as a language. It was our hereditary advantage. The modern
adaptation of culture is through geographical isolation similar to

Darwin's

adaptation of species. Unfortunately in Darwin's sense it has succumb to
the conquest and cohersion of the nation-state. Cultural pluralism in the
sense it can learn and adapt and grow by learning from other cultures is
pure simple hogwash. So when a spokesman for a culture says we like our
teas it is no more different than the vain French admiring pictures of
themselves. We have to put up with Peter Jennings and Celine Dion.
Jim

And Alanis Morissette and Dan Ackroyd and Martin Short and Anne Murray and
Brian Adams and The Barenaked Ladies and my great-grandfather... and the
list goes on. ;)

N.

[Derek]

On 28 Jul 2003, Space Cowboy climbed into "rec.food.drink.tea",

We have to put up with Peter Jennings and Celine Dion.

You're just jealous that Peter Jennings aced the U.S. citizenship
exam. :P

Derek

[Space Cowboy]

Dual citizenship malarky. He's been talking to a tax lawyer. It's not the
same as an expatriate. He knows if he gets his ass in a jam overseas Canada
would probably say kiss it good bye while the US would rescue it. I
couldn't score a 100 on a citizenship test and would probably fail.

Jim

Post by Derek
On 28 Jul 2003, Space Cowboy climbed into "rec.food.drink.tea",

We have to put up with Peter Jennings and Celine Dion.

You're just jealous that Peter Jennings aced the U.S. citizenship
exam. :P
Derek

[WNW]

Post by Space Cowboy
Dual citizenship malarky. He's been talking to a tax lawyer. It's not the
same as an expatriate. He knows if he gets his ass in a jam overseas Canada
would probably say kiss it good bye while the US would rescue it. I
couldn't score a 100 on a citizenship test and would probably fail.
Jim

Post by Derek
On 28 Jul 2003, Space Cowboy climbed into "rec.food.drink.tea",

We have to put up with Peter Jennings and Celine Dion.

You're just jealous that Peter Jennings aced the U.S. citizenship
exam. :P
Derek

For fun, I did some of the quizzes on Canada's website regarding
immigration, and I scored fairly well.

But regarding Jennings, it was interesting to note in that article that he
said his mother was very anti-American. He didn't go into details, but I
gathered he was trying to make it seem that this might be one reason he had
not pursued gaining American citizenship, although it was equally odd that
he said she had died around nine years ago. So that again begs the
question... why now? Perhaps it's for tax purposes after all.

N.

[Michael Plant]

Post by Julie C.

Post by crymad
This urge to "broaden one's horizons" seems an
American affliction.

This is one of the saddest thing I ever read. I hope you don't really
mean it. Because, what you call an affliction, this urge to broaden
one's horizons, is the main characterisc of the inquiring mind. It has
nothing to do with Americans in particular. It's very human. It's the
willingness to undertake new ventures and it's called curiosity,
inquisitiveness, mental acquisitiveness, enterprise, initiative, an open
mind, a free spirit. All signs of the awaken mind. Or in other words,
intelligence.

We Americans broadened our horizons quite literally through earlier
centuries by manifesting our destiny to own and control the North American
continent and by extension have lots of experiences. To get our land, we
stole, maimed, killed, exploited, threatened, and generally engaged in a
popularly supported orgy of genecide. I'd like to say we've given it up in
the new mellenium, but unfortunately, I can't.

While there is nothing intrinsically wrong that I can see with going into a
wine shop or cheese shop or bread shop and having thousands of choices, or
having hundreds of TV channels at your fingertips, there is also something
to be said for familiarity and depth. You can experience the whole world in
a dew drop too. It is indeed an affliction to demand the range of experience
and ignore the depth. And I personally think it's not possible to do both.

Post by Julie C.
If you forbidden yourself to be amazed by all the possibilities waiting
to be discovered, then, in my sense, you are missing the point of
living. Life is too vast, diverse, and short to be wasted on an ethnic
origin. We don't choose to be born Japanese, American, Caucasian, Asian,
or from whatever other origin. So, why add to this by being
segregationist with yourself?

Segregationist, my foot. It was just a suggestion that we are in danger of
bouncing around so much, we lose the possiblity of depth. Or maybe I'm
reading into it as much as I'm accusing you of doing.

Post by Julie C.
Don't be a vegetable. Explore. Be free.

Oh, baa.

Post by Julie C.
By the way, since my short stay in Japan I like to drink a Japanese
green tea, now and then, just to remind me of this wonderfull country
and to break the monotony. I never got used to Chinese tea. In my
opinion, Japanese teas are far more purer ans tastier.

Apples and oranges. Blah, blah.
Sorry, just venting. It's a touchy issue for me. Hope we're still friends.

Michael

[Space Cowboy]

Unlike Colonialism we didn't give anything back.

Jim

We're hardly the only ones who did this, not that that makes it any less
odious. Look at the history of South Africa or the Congo, to name but a
couple.
N.

[Paul Guertin]

Post by crymad
Then so be it. Most all tea-loving Japanese spend their entire lives
happily drinking tea from their homeland without ever feeling the need
to investigate the offerings of their neighbors. The Chinese are
probably the same way. This urge to "broaden one's horizons" seems an
American affliction.

Most tea drinkers in Japan and China are very casual about it, and
don't care that much about tea. Of course they aren't interested in
trying new flavours -- just like a typical American beer drinker
doesn't care about Guinness or Blanche de Bruges.

I can assure you that there are Japanese and Chinese tea aficionados
who like to "broaden their horizons" -- the Mariage Frères shop in
Osaka does very good business.

Paul Guertin
***@sff.net

[Lewis Perin]

Post by Paul Guertin

Post by crymad
Then so be it. Most all tea-loving Japanese spend their entire lives
happily drinking tea from their homeland without ever feeling the need
to investigate the offerings of their neighbors. The Chinese are
probably the same way. This urge to "broaden one's horizons" seems an
American affliction.

Most tea drinkers in Japan and China are very casual about it, and
don't care that much about tea. Of course they aren't interested in
trying new flavours -- just like a typical American beer drinker
doesn't care about Guinness or Blanche de Bruges.
I can assure you that there are Japanese and Chinese tea aficionados
who like to "broaden their horizons" -- the Mariage Frères shop in
Osaka does very good business.

A friend of mine told me of a business trip to Japan during which he
was taken by a Japanese business associate to a luxurious *Chinese*
tearoom.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / ***@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

[crymad]

Post by Paul Guertin

Post by crymad
Then so be it. Most all tea-loving Japanese spend their entire lives
happily drinking tea from their homeland without ever feeling the need
to investigate the offerings of their neighbors. The Chinese are
probably the same way. This urge to "broaden one's horizons" seems an
American affliction.

Most tea drinkers in Japan and China are very casual about it, and
don't care that much about tea. Of course they aren't interested in
trying new flavours -- just like a typical American beer drinker
doesn't care about Guinness or Blanche de Bruges.
I can assure you that there are Japanese and Chinese tea aficionados
who like to "broaden their horizons" -- the Mariage Frères shop in
Osaka does very good business.

Yes, but let's remember that very good Japanese tea can be found at
virtually any grocery/department store anywhere in Japan, While it's
true the great majority have no real interest in tea, those who do are
understandably quite content with the fine offerings so easily available
to them.

--crymad

[Her Serene Highness]

Oh, boy, I really hadn't wanted to pipe up in this discussion but...

More dreadful examples abound in "fusion cooking", an
oftentimes haphazard approach to food that now seems to be America's
national cuisine.

Wasn't it in a Gourmet magazine article in the last year or so that the

keepers

of the flame of grand French cuisine were admitting (and it was hard for

them

to admit) that the mantle of culinary supremacy had passed to the

Americans and

others because the French themselves had been so busy protecting their
traditions that their food just wasn't that interesting anymore. No new

blood.

No lemongrass or chipotles for them, Mon Dieu!
Of course, I suppose another way to read that is that the French didn't

keep up

in the ever-changing fashion show of international cuisine, which is just
another example of the relentless pursuit of the new and exotic.
Probably, fusion cooking can be good or bad, depending on the taste and
expertise of the cook. I'm sure I can't afford the good restaurants,

though.

I'll go back and lurk quietly now...
.
Joe
Who is definitely not a Foodie

You can actually afford the good restaurants, Joseph- and enjoy the food,
too. In NYC alone, food is fusing all the time. This is the home of
Chino-Latino, after all. Sushi has changed here. Pizza doesn't look like
foccacia. Anytime a chef of a different ethnicity than the owner- or a
busboy with a few family recipes- enters a kitchen, food changes.

The French are foolish. Food does not remain stable. The Japanese know this,
and incorporate new cuisines all the time. Curry from India by way of
English sailors has become a staple. Iced coffee is the rage. Ice cream is
made from green tea, and mochi is frozen. All of these foods have been fused
with other ideas. And let's not talk about how in a Japanese supermarket
you can find spaghetti (Italian), the makings for bibimbop (Korean), and
cream-filled cakes (French). The French would be better off adding
chipotles. After all, they once added potatoes, tomatoes and cocoa to their
diet- and that didn't hurt them at all.

[WNW]

From what I understand in the US if you want French cruisine you still go

to

France. My friends tell me there is no legitimate French restaurant in

the

US. The trappings yes, the wines yes, the selection yes, the taste no.

We

have one of the most advertized French restaurants in the US. If you want
near French taste while saving on airfare you go to an unadvertized
Vietnamese restaurant. Nothing wierder than eating escargot and truffles
with chopsticks.
Jim

Wasn't it in a Gourmet magazine article in the last year or so that the

keepers

of the flame of grand French cuisine were admitting (and it was hard for

them

to admit) that the mantle of culinary supremacy had passed to the

Americans and

others because the French themselves had been so busy protecting their
traditions that their food just wasn't that interesting anymore. No new

blood.

No lemongrass or chipotles for them, Mon Dieu!

I ate at a French restaurant in Metz, France back in 2000. It was much less
than memorable. Perhaps it was just too close to Switzerland, eh? Not even
all French restaurants are created equal, apparently. The innkeeper at the
place I stayed in Metz seemed amazed that as an American, I could ask for
the room key in French.. and fairly intelligible French at that.

N.

[Chinasaur]

More dreadful examples abound in "fusion cooking", an
oftentimes haphazard approach to food that now seems to be America's
national cuisine.

The above seems meaningless to me since all food is fusion. A version I
will agree with though is that foods garishly advertised as 'new' or
'fusion' are more likely to taste bad than foods that doesn't rely on
these slogans as their only selling point.

[Her Serene Highness]

Post by Chinasaur

More dreadful examples abound in "fusion cooking", an
oftentimes haphazard approach to food that now seems to be America's
national cuisine.

The above seems meaningless to me since all food is fusion. A version I
will agree with though is that foods garishly advertised as 'new' or
'fusion' are more likely to taste bad than foods that doesn't rely on
these slogans as their only selling point.

Another agreement here.
Chino-Latino wasn't invented by a trendy chef. It originally came about by
necessity- how does a poor Chinese guy sell food to Puerto Ricans,
Dominicans, and blacks who aren't familiar with that kind of cooking, and
are actually somewhat hostile towards it? Answer- make two menus, one
'Spanish' and one vaguely Chinese. Over time the two cross-pollinate.
There are even less radical versions. What do you eat if you're a poor
Italian immigrant in southern Louisiana, with very few of your native foods
available except for cold cuts and bread recipes, especially when you're
living next to poor French descendents in a swampy area that has all kinds
of odd crustaceans and shellfish? You eat muffalettas and po'boys made with
Italian-style garnishes and cold cuts, oysters, crayfish, and bread that is
is vaguely French and vaguely Italian.
This is why I don't freak out over bubble tea when I see it (even if I hate
tapioca); I recognise it as a fusion of the after-school snack, iced tea,
and Asian style candies. Is it tea? Yes. It's also a yummy treat- it's
what happens to tea when people have incorporated Coffee-Mate into their tea
drinking in offices and at home, in countries where lactose intolerance is
high. I realized this one day when I was reading the ingredients for a
do-it-yourself bubble tea kit (you can get these at Mitsuwa Marketplace in
the US; in NYC at least, there's a small chain called JASmart that has
them).